[johnung]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

This.

Take responsibility.
This month a report came out showing how states that didn't adopt the stricter CA auto pollution standards ("net exporters") are responsible for much of the transportation pollution in the NE states that did adopt the CA standards.
Same thing.

Murf

Huh? That's totally changing the subject of the conversation. Let's just end the conversation.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

Straw sales are illegal in every state.

Sounds like the people you are complaining about are already breaking the law. So the plan is - pass more laws? How does that work?

Here is the question on the ATF Form 4473 which is required to purchase a gun in any US state. It is question 11.a

"""Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are
acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)"""

If you answer no to any of the questions on the form you are not allowed to complete the transaction. So in effect every state already has a straw man purchase law on the books via the federal government.

This is what I was leading to. This is illegal, not legal activity. More people claiming they know the law when they don’t, like the gun show loophole. It’s all bs the gun grabbers spew. People who want to commit crimes don’t care two poops about gun laws. Gun laws only screw over people who follow the law, pay their taxes and so on.

I am more concerned about keeping mentally impared people from getting to buy guns as it seems like people with mental disabilities who then go in a kill people is a common thread. Yet we want to ban guns for everyone when crazies kill people.

[jimbobiggens]

If some guy had stood up in the boat and demanded Lewis and Clark throw all their guns in the river they might have thrown him in the river. Well, maybe not, but they probably would have thought the sun fried his brain. Guns were needed then, as they are needed now.

The need is not hard to understand. Wild Indians and bears have been replaced with gang members and crackheads. It's on the news every single night. What I have a hard time understanding is why seemingly intelligent, normal people are so willing and ready to transfer responsibility for their personal safety and the safety of their loved ones to a police force that may be on the other side of town when the call comes.

I genuinely don't understand the aversion towards self-reliance and preparedness. The only thing I can come up with is the people opposed to guns in the hands of the average citizen have never been mugged. Is it the "that won't happen to me, it just happens to other people" kind of thinking?

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by jimbobiggens

If some guy had stood up in the boat and demanded Lewis and Clark throw all their guns in the river they might have thrown him in the river..... Wild Indians and bears have been replaced with gang members and crackheads. It's on the news every single night.... The only thing I can come up with is the people opposed to guns in the hands of the average citizen have never been mugged. Is it the "that won't happen to me, it just happens to other people" kind of thinking?

I often wonder why gun owners are so scared. Is your nabe more dangerous than, say, NYC in the '70's (when me & my dog chased gun-wielding muggers for blocks)? We all in NYC got rid of the guns, and now are safer than the 'burbs.
You can go backwards, watch Faux news, imagining you are in the wild west, or go forward to the new economy. How different would your life be, and the life of your community, if folks ditched their expensive & time consuming gun habits, bought a good computer, & learned to function better in the new economy?
Or you can go backwards....
The country as a whole is safer now than ever.

Murf

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by johnung

Huh? That's totally changing the subject of the conversation. Let's just end the conversation.

"Shove me into shallow water before I get to deep"

Murf

[M5Rick]

Anyone tries to steal our toilet rolls and Apothic red stored in garage will have an S&W cartridge emptied on them

[big_ol_litres]

Originally Posted by jimbobiggens

If some guy had stood up in the boat and demanded Lewis and Clark throw all their guns in the river they might have thrown him in the river. Well, maybe not, but they probably would have thought the sun fried his brain. Guns were needed then, as they are needed now.

The need is not hard to understand. Wild Indians and bears have been replaced with gang members and crackheads. It's on the news every single night. What I have a hard time understanding is why seemingly intelligent, normal people are so willing and ready to transfer responsibility for their personal safety and the safety of their loved ones to a police force that may be on the other side of town when the call comes.

I genuinely don't understand the aversion towards self-reliance and preparedness. The only thing I can come up with is the people opposed to guns in the hands of the average citizen have never been mugged. Is it the "that won't happen to me, it just happens to other people" kind of thinking?

I like your train of thought. I definitely understand and feel some of the apathy but that’s mainly cause I’m already prepared for things like this to happen.

In my opinion when a population of people are armed they are much more polite. Living in Salt Lake City is kinda like the Mormon Switzerland and supplies haven’t been very limited from what I’ve seen.

[jimbobiggens]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

I often wonder why gun owners are so scared. Is your nabe more dangerous than, say, NYC in the '70's (when me & my dog chased gun-wielding muggers for blocks)? We all in NYC got rid of the guns, and now are safer than the 'burbs.
You can go backwards, watch Faux news, imagining you are in the wild west, or go forward to the new economy. How different would your life be, and the life of your community, if folks ditched their gun habits, bought a good computer, & learned to function better in the new economy?
Or you can go backwards....
The country as a whole is safer now than ever.

Murf

OK, that's what I'm talking about. Thanks for that. So the thought process is guns impede the creation of a utopia?

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by jimbobiggens

OK, that's what I'm talking about. Thanks for that. So the thought process is guns impede the creation of a utopia?

Don't let the quest for perfection impede the quest for good.
You found Utopia?!?

Murf

[jimbobiggens]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Don't let the quest for perfection impede the quest for good.
You found Utopia?!?

Murf

I'm just trying to understand. I don't understand how the creation of a utopia negates the need for self reliance.
Maybe I misinterpreted this: "How different would your life be, and the life of your community, if folks ditched their expensive & time consuming gun habits, bought a good computer, & learned to function better in the new economy?". I thought you were talking about creating utopia.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by jimbobiggens

I'm just trying to understand. I don't understand how the creation of a utopia negates the need for self reliance.

I must have missed that post.
Did NYC call in the Texas Rangers, or did we and other states implement laws that made our streets safer?
Is Utopia near Paradise, CA?

Murf

[jimbobiggens]

Looks like i edited my post bout the time you posted. Oops

[Littlebear]

My post still stands.
About the time I moved to the Lower East Side of Manhattan, I bought a heavy bag & gloves. When we moved to Brklyn, we got a capable dog.
Seeing us walking the street was more of a deterrent than some scared person packing a hidden gun, and safer to others, also.

Murf

[Salty Dog]

What I have a hard time understanding is why seemingly intelligent, normal people are so willing and ready to transfer responsibility for their personal safety and the safety of their loved ones to a police force that may be on the other side of town when the call comes.

I genuinely don't understand the aversion towards self-reliance and preparedness. The only thing I can come up with is the people opposed to guns in the hands of the average citizen have never been mugged. Is it the "that won't happen to me, it just happens to other people" kind of thinking?[/QUOTE]

Even if the police are a few blocks away the time it takes to get the call dispatched and the police to respond can be a couple of minutes and that is honestly the very best case scenario. Now take a few minutes and sit looking at a clock, imagine you are in trouble and need help and watch the clock for 3 or 4 minutes. Because if you are really lucky thats how long the police are going to take.....if you are really lucky. It is often longer, and sometimes much much longer. I for one will happily dial 911 and then drop the phone so the operator can record my defending my family, myself and my home.....and I know a lot of outstanding lawyers who will later defend me. I was in law enforcement for over 30 years in a major NA city. I love the cops and have all the respect in the world for them, and I know that they cannot protect me and my family in a very meaningful way.

[c1pher]

I’m not scared, I’m prepared. Fear has no part in any of this, it’s more about the world we live in and people who want to do others harm. I’d rather go down swinging than hope the police show up to save me when in reality they won’t.

[floridaorange]

If someone literally feels like they have to take the la into their own hands because where they live they cannot trust the police then ok. I've never felt that way but when I travel sometimes I'll carry a very intimidating and sharp knife and it makes me feel safer.

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by johnung

Change whatever makes it so easy to have straw gun sales in Ohio that the NJ State Police say that's where most of the crime guns used in NJ originate. I haven't heard anyone complain that straw gun sales from NJ are supplying crime guns to their state. I would bet that every state knows where crime guns used in their state originate. I don't write laws for a living and would much rather research car stuff.

Have you not read the discussion? There is already a law and requirement in place preventing straw sales. What new law would you pass that would work if this one isn't?

[zx10guy]

I live in a very nice middle class neighborhood. There was a day time break in at one of the houses in my neighborhood. The residents just barely got out before the intruders made their way in. The residents of that home could only call 911 when they found another neighbor home who let them in.

So assuming one can call 911 to get police help is just assuming one can.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by floridaorange

If someone literally feels like they have to take the la into their own hands because where they live they cannot trust the police then ok. I've never felt that way but when I travel sometimes I'll carry a very intimidating and sharp knife and it makes me feel safer.

I’m not talking about hunting people down vigilante style. I’m talking about home defense. Using your logic we have no need for the military since the UN will defend our country based on international law.

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I live in a very nice middle class neighborhood. There was a day time break in at one of the houses in my neighborhood. The residents just barely got out before the intruders made their way in. The residents of that home could only call 911 when they found another neighbor home who let them in.

So assuming one can call 911 to get police help is just assuming one can.

A lot of people have been fortunate enough to never meet violent or desperate people. They live in a bubble that says civilization will always protect them. And I hope it does for them because if they ever need to protect themself they are likely screwed. Boxing gloves and big dogs won't work.

Reality is perhaps a gun will fail. Perhaps you don't get to it in time. Maybe your aim sucks. Maybe it jams. it is just a tool.

For those who suggest working out, karate, dogs etc I submit many people can not use that route. Small elderly women are not going to be able to fend off an attacker with kung fu regardless of how cool it looks in the movies. Even a bad ass is in trouble against 3-4 attackers that have been hit before. And what if one isn't born large, strong and fast? Or is aging with medical issues?

There are no perfect answers. It does seem like those on the side of gun bans don't care about the weak amid us. How about that divorcee whose ex is a violent felon that WILL visit her in the middle of the night on a meth rage? Dial 911? Sure. It will take him all of 60 seconds to smash down a cheap apartment door and kill her. If she was lucky the cops will be there to arrest him 5 minutes later.

I'm OK with those who choose to let the system protect them. Just don't try to force me to abide by the opinion that the system will always protect me. I do not share that opinion.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

A lot of people have been fortunate enough to never meet violent or desperate people. They live in a bubble that says civilization will always protect them. And I hope it does for them because if they ever need to protect themself they are likely screwed. Boxing gloves and big dogs won't work.

Reality is perhaps a gun will fail. Perhaps you don't get to it in time. Maybe your aim sucks. Maybe it jams. it is just a tool.

For those who suggest working out, karate, dogs etc I submit many people can not use that route. Small elderly women are not going to be able to fend off an attacker with kung fu regardless of how cool it looks in the movies. Even a bad ass is in trouble against 3-4 attackers that have been hit before. And what if one isn't born large, strong and fast? Or is aging with medical issues?

There are no perfect answers. It does seem like those on the side of gun bans don't care about the weak amid us. How about that divorcee whose ex is a violent felon that WILL visit her in the middle of the night on a meth rage? Dial 911? Sure. It will take him all of 60 seconds to smash down a cheap apartment door and kill her. If she was lucky the cops will be there to arrest him 5 minutes later.

I'm OK with those who choose to let the system protect them. Just don't try to force me to abide by the opinion that the system will always protect me. I do not share that opinion.

Firearms are a tool as you said. And I agree with you there are no perfect answers. Even if you do have a firearm in the house, there might be a situation where you can't get to it. But it's an option that one can exercise and it's not for me to make that decision for someone else.

I dated a woman briefly that had an out of control ex-fiance. From what I remember of the story, the ex wanted in to the house and broke the door in. This despite her having a friend there with her of equal size as her ex. Fortunately, the ex left on his own accord but that situation could have escalated big time while the police are responding. Because of that situation, she was able to get a protective order against her ex and also qualified for a CCW which is extremely hard to get around here as in pretty much don't bother to apply.

[cooolone2]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

I must have missed that post.
Did NYC call in the Texas Rangers, or did we and other states implement laws that made our streets safer?
Is Utopia near Paradise, CA?

Murf

You dismiss the simple fact that CRIMINALS do not obey "law"... They stand outside the social compact civilians have made with the Gov't. Do you understand the significance of this statement? Anyways...

Laws do not make streets safer, no more than jailing Drug Kingpins stop the drug trade! All your boxing won't work against a guy standing 6' away from you holding a gun pointed at you. And your dog is easily taken care of too. It all breaks down when the individual decides he is beyond the scales of Justice and can do whatever he wants! You can add experience by the fact a criminal is typically a repeat offender until caught. Each experience emboldening the escalation to more or bigger is better.

Today you can add to it the ridiculous Bail Reform and the fact the Justice system right now can't even seat Grand Juries, you have a potential powder keg laying in wait for those who are always willing to game the system and take advantage at the cost of those silly little law abiding God fearing folk who just want to play nice!

You are seriously drinking some strong propaganda if you honestly think you're safer in the city than the "burbs"... Confused at best, brain washed at the worst. Population density alone dictates that you have a higher statistical significance of being able subject to criminal activity than those in the "burbs". The NYPD began a program back in Guiliani days to reclassify crimes, this took on unprecedented escalation during Bloombucks who wanted to make the city appear more attractive as hordes had left post 9-11. Want to call Bushwick - East Williamsburg, go ahead, and Red Hook is still Red Hook. You can slap lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig! Gentrification is not complete.

And yeah, I grew up in the city during the 70's when murder rates were ridiculous by today's standards. So yes, the city is safer these days by comparison, but that doesn't mean they are safer than outside the city. It's an unfactual assumption, Dunning Kruger... I can tell you I left the city over 20 years ago and live in a NY county that is very 2A friendly and it has one of the highest "carry" populas of the State, and also enjoys the lowest crime! You can search all you want, fact is that municipalities across the country that have disarmed their residents also encounter higher crime rates. This is fact!

I've been mugged, at knife point, been in riots/gang fights, robbed with a gun against my head, car stolen, etc., etc. I'm also a very capable Martial Artist trained in Life Protection arts, not take my "Dough Joe" sport BS, and your post provided me with some entertainment by it's assumptions. I, through my experience, do not make any. I don't assume the outcome of an encounter, or that the streets are safe because some paper or website tells me it is. I don't assume to create hypothetical scenarios and predict the outcome because I'm trained in anything or have a tool on me that may be used at the time. You can interview a thousand victims of crimes, same for law enforcement officers about their experience and expectations and see how well they matched. You'd be enlightened!

Best of luck to your Utopia protected by Laws, don't forget to call the police and wait for a response when you have a problem

Have a nice day!