[HighlandPete]

It is clear on this thread many love MT driving. I can take the flack, as MT isn't always the best setup for a daily driver. Yes, I see this from a European perspective. Engine and drivetrain combos with a lot of our diesels aren't always best suited to MT anyway. To the point BMW dropped MT on all the bigger diesel engines. Many models, petrol and diesel, haven't had an MT option for years. More new models dropping out all the time. Some of it due to lack of demand, even in M-cars. For example, the F10 M5 never had MT in the UK.

Driving for over 50-years, also teaches me MT can be very varied. Let's be honest, some MT setups are not that slick at all. Poor clutch action and clunky gearshifts. That includes BMW.

If you want something like a G20/21 M340i in the UK, better like AT, as that's all that is on offer. G80 M3, same again, only AT.

We can't say only "non enthusiasts" buy M340i or M3 models in the UK.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by INTMD8

Adaptive is not usable for my drives.

Commute is high speed with a lot of congestion, people pull into the spot the adaptive cruise leaves in front of you.


Anyway, I always prefer manual trans. If I have a car without one, it wasn't offered.

Then you and everyone else are driving at distances where they wouldn't be able to react and stop if necessary. Good luck with all that, sounds stressful as hell to commute like that and I want no part of it.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

It is clear on this thread many love MT driving. I can take the flack, as MT isn't always the best setup for a daily driver. Yes, I see this from a European perspective. Engine and drivetrain combos with a lot of our diesels aren't always best suited to MT anyway. To the point BMW dropped MT on all the bigger diesel engines. Many models, petrol and diesel, haven't had an MT option for years. More new models dropping out all the time. Some of it due to lack of demand, even in M-cars. For example, the F10 M5 never had MT in the UK.

Driving for over 50-years, also teaches me MT can be very varied. Let's be honest, some MT setups are not that slick at all. Poor clutch action and clunky gearshifts. That includes BMW.

If you want something like a G20/21 M340i in the UK, better like AT, as that's all that is on offer. G80 M3, same again, only AT.

We can't say only "non enthusiasts" buy M340i or M3 models in the UK.

I think a certain transmission is best for a certain car, in that it's not necessarily DCT, manual, automatic, etc. Some of the Porsche models come most alive with a DCT IMO. The old 5spd subaru WRX was the only way to order that car, the 4EAT was a horrible piece of garbage. The luxury smooth 8+gear autos on the big luxury sedans match perfectly and can harness all that torque so well, and on and on. Putting a different transmission in many of these cars results in a much less optimal setup an mismatch in terms of the car's intent, IMO.

[Esteban]

If the OP is asking the question, "should I get a manual car next?" then he's looking at cars that offer a manual transmission.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Esteban

If the OP is asking the question, "should I get a manual car next?" then he's looking at cars that offer a manual transmission.

Yup. For me specifically it would be G80/G87/CT4/5 V BW. Or if someone can help me convince my wife that putting small children in the back of an Evora isn't child abuse.. I'll consider that too.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Onesie

This isn't what this thread is about either.

I thought "pros and cons" are part of the OP's original post.

Sorry... I'll back away and let you control the content of the thread.

[unluky]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I've had nothing but autos.... hence the question

If it's for everyday driving and puttering around - personal choice. I have a auto for a DD.

But for a fun car? No question at all. Nothing feels as plugged in as having every single limb engaged as you burn thru the twisties and the only thing holding you in place is your ass cheeks.

As good as auto's are - they will just never feel the same to me. You feel like you are a part of the machine.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by unluky

If it's for everyday driving and puttering around - personal choice. I have a auto for a DD.

But for a fun car? No question at all. Nothing feels as plugged in as having every single limb engaged as you burn thru the twisties and the only thing holding you in place is your ass cheeks.

As good as auto's are - they will just never feel the same to me. You feel like you are a part of the machine.

Just gotta ask... why would one EVER not drive a fun car? I don't get it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Driving/choosing AT or MT isn't a binary decision. BTW, what's the choice really got to do with whether you enjoy driving?

Being in the UK we were brought up with MT, most of us never looked at AT until AT became more sophisticated, and had some really tangible driver adaptation built into the transmission management.

I now drive AT, enjoy driving AT just as much as driving MT. I get a bit of seat time in MT rental and courtesy cars, but would not buy one as a daily driver.

BTW, I go back to driving MT with crash boxes, (no synchromesh) and 3-speed AT. The first AT which grabbed my attention was the ZF 5-speed, made so much sense coupled to a BMW V8.

The 8-speed burrs the lines between choosing AT vs. MT, IMO. We take our pick on how we want to drive, and how much we want to be involved.

Learn to drive an AT properly, explore its finer nuances, and it can be as involving to drive as a stick.

BTW: 35-years owning/driving MT, 19-years owning/driving AT.

So, you really need to expand on this. Are you talking about manually shifting an automatic? I've driven the 6-speed auto that is in the BMW 3-series and in the Cadillac ATS. I've also driven the 8-speed version in both the BMW and ATS. I recently drove the GM/Ford 10-speed automatic in the new Bronco. I do have one automatic transmission vehicle (only because the manual version was unavailable). It was difficult for me to learn how to drive the automatic. I honestly didn't think there was a learning curve needed to drive an automatic transmission, but I found there actually was. I did take driver's education in automatics, and my father's cars that I drove were all automatics (Mom's were all manuals - she was cool, LOL), but his cars were all 3 and 4-speed autos tied to big American V8 engines. I took my driver's license test in a manual. 99.8% of my miles since then have been in manuals.

But "finer nuances" in an automatic? With THAT comment, you have some explaining to do.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So, you really need to expand on this. Are you talking about manually shifting an automatic? I've driven the 6-speed auto that is in the BMW 3-series and in the Cadillac ATS. I've also driven the 8-speed version in both the BMW and ATS. I recently drove the GM/Ford 10-speed automatic in the new Bronco. I do have one automatic transmission vehicle (only because the manual version was unavailable). It was difficult for me to learn how to drive the automatic. I honestly didn't think there was a learning curve needed to drive an automatic transmission, but I found there actually was. I did take driver's education in automatics, and my father's cars that I drove were all automatics (Mom's were all manuals - she was cool, LOL), but his cars were all 3 and 4-speed autos tied to big American V8 engines. I took my driver's license test in a manual. 99.8% of my miles since then have been in manuals.

But "finer nuances" in an automatic? With THAT comment, you have some explaining to do.

Not sure this is the thread to explain how there are skills to learn with AT, to get the best interaction between driver and machine.

I certainly can explain. How it has a skill level, can be as involving as MT, but in a different way.

For example, how many MT drivers (some who mock the AT) know the intricacies of 'kick-fast', (not kick-down), 'brake evaluation' or what gearshift suppression involves? How we, as drivers, have a direct influence in how we control these functions... to do exactly what we want.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just gotta ask... why would one EVER not drive a fun car? I don't get it.

One bazillion SUV drivers need to understand this. There's a guy with an orange Urus at our school pickup line. I laugh every time I see it. Even if it's his seventeenth car, every one of those sixteen others has to be more fun.

[Humdizzle]

fun car would be manual all day for me. but if i had to drive in congested traffic then i'd pick auto or dct. the only reason to buy a dct or auto is for convenience imo. there is hardly any performance benefit if you have no lift shift and the auto rev match. i got manual gt3 and f80. my 09 civic is an auto, i just throw it in D and cruise cruise to work while listening to a podcast sipping my coffee. its the car to drive when i don't care about driving.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Not sure this is the thread to explain how there are skills to learn with AT, to get the best interaction between driver and machine.

I certainly can explain. How it has a skill level, can be as involving as MT, but in a different way.

For example, how many MT drivers (some who mock the AT) know the intricacies of 'kick-fast', (not kick-down), 'brake evaluation' or what gearshift suppression involves? How we, as drivers, have a direct influence in how we control these functions... to do exactly what we want.

Okay, now you are just making shit up. LOL

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

fun car would be manual all day for me. but if i had to drive in congested traffic then i'd pick auto or dct. the only reason to buy a dct or auto is for convenience imo. there is hardly any performance benefit if you have no lift shift and the auto rev match. i got manual gt3 and f80. my 09 civic is an auto, i just throw it in D and cruise cruise to work while listening to a podcast sipping my coffee. its the car to drive when i don't care about driving.

Woo, soooo much faster.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Pros of stick:
- More driving engagement = more fun (this is the primary reason) This is significant. To car enthusiasts, driving is an art, it's something to enjoy. You simply cannot compare an automatic to a manual.
- Cheaper if you're looking at used cars, then no, its not cheaper, it's actually much more expensive as they hold their value much more.
- Wife refuses to learn to drive stick I think after she sees how much you enjoy driving your new car, she might actually want to learn. This is something that can be fun in a relationship.

Cons of stick:
- Will I get tired of it after a while? No. You will actually look forward to driving. Think of your boring commute, you put your car into D and it does everything for you other than steer and brake. Now imagine actually enjoying the drive...
- Slower It's actually not. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/. And what if it was? Are you counting the milliseconds on your grocery runs? Of course not. Is this a dedicated track car? Even if it was, is the ultimate purpose to run faster times? If it isn't and you're here to actually enjoy driving, manual FTW
- Wife refuses to learn to drive stick See points above
- Limited options (basically G80, G87, CT4V BW) This is true but also puts you in some really cool & exclusive cars

At the end of the day, don't sell yourself short. Experience driving at it's fullest. This isn't just a status symbol, even though clearly a lot of people buy cars just for that.

[wtwo3]

So a little update. I've been driving a couple manual cars just to get the feel of doing it on a daily basis.

First was an Evo X. And holy crap the clutch was brutal. Not an easy car to drive for someone who doesn't already daily a manual car. After a day I did start to get the hang of it. That made me think, hey I think I can do this... albeit requiring a lot more practice.



Then, I drove a new Civic Si. And this was a night and day difference from the Evo X. I was shocked at how easy it was to drive. I almost felt like I was driving an automatic with how smooth the clutch operation was. It definitely restored a lot of faith after the beatdown I got from the Evo, and my level of confidence was now through the roof.



The one common thing in both experiences though, was that it was fun. The Civic was SLOW... but still fun to drive simply because I was rowing my own gears. And the Evo.. well that was an experience.

After those experiences, I think I've decided. Unless something drastic changes between now and this summer, my next car will be a manual transmission car.

Thanks all for your insights!

[Jay_McDrop]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

If you were doing lots of urban stop and go driving, I would say...go automatic. But based on your usage, I would go for the stick and enjoy the involvement.

I agree, manual is very nice to drive, but in an urban setting can be frustrating at times.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Jay_McDrop

I agree, manual is very nice to drive, but in an urban setting can be frustrating at times.

Yeah, it's really hard to hold your phone.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RM7

Yeah, it's really hard to hold your phone.

... and read a 3-year-old thread on E90 Post...

[NervoS]

I have been driving E46 2001 330ci with 6 speed stick for more than 10 years (in fact, I've done 6 spd swap into it myself, it was 5 spd auto ZF5HP19 originally). I love it. Still do. But it is my last manual car. It just makes no sense anymore. Those times, when automatic gearbox was called contemptuously as a "slushbox" - it made sense. With current state of 8 speed super quick, super reliable auto gearboxes.... No sense at all. IMO.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

... and read a 3-year-old thread on E90 Post...

Not sure how this thread got resurrected from the dead I've had my manual car for close to 2 years now

[pbonsalb]

If you want a manual, buy one. After decades of driving manuals (most recently 10 years in my former E90 M3), I like the modern auto in my F90 M5. These days, autos are the higher performance option and they get better mpg. I still have a couple of manual cars (E36 M3 and 2002) but don’t drive them much.