[kyriian]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I live in a condo building and can have a charger installed in my parking spot if I request it.

That's mostly new buildings where this is possible, majority of the buildings I went to does not offer this as an option.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

There already are. You can charge at home.

Yeah good luck getting people to install a proper 240v plug and then for a good proportion of the population, it's near impossible to do a home charger.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Where electric cars make a lot of sense is in the city with all the stop and go traffic. But in cities with a dense population and congestion, you have apartments and condos. Can't plug in there. Even with townhomes and row houses, charging at home presents a problem if there is no driveway or garage. In short, situations where street parking is the only option presents a major problem.

Yet, most major cities have excellent public transportation. Cars, regardless of propulsion architecture, make the least sense.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Detailed work!

I am pretty sure, an even less expensive to run ICE car (say a Honda Civic) will make that calculation even more one sided

The $20,000 price delta between a Civic and lowest-priced Model 3 pays for 180,000 miles of gasoline, and that is not including the cost of electricity to charge the EV. Modern ICE cars require little maintenance up to 100,000+ miles. The cost of the battery is the problem. The math just doesn't work.

[FrankMstein]

I would like to have one with a hot-swapable battery option at a local battery exchange station.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

so i've been doing some deep diving into these smaller EV vehicles to replace my civic

The claimed range is a bit misleading since my commute is about 70-75 miles round trip with sitting me sitting at 80mph 99% of it. Driving at those speeds destroys the 'claimed' range.

2017 e-Golf has a listed range of 111 hwy. however in looking at a chart on an e-golf forum the consumption goes up significantly with higher speeds. with the range dropping to around 87 if you do 80mph in an ideal scenario.

then add cold weather, tire pressure drop on cold day, needing to use the heater/wipers, deal with headwind, adding a few miles going out for lunch during work... it makes me weary.

Despite the lifecycle cost issue, this is really what kept me from switching to EV when I was commuting 175 miles a day. Cold winter range. My company would not install EV chargers at work. The problem with EV is heat, because it impacts range significantly, easily by 25% or more. ICE has heat, and tons of it for free, and its impact on range is insignificant.

My friends with Teslas said, "just top off at a local fast charge station for 30 minutes". Well, if your commute on a good day is already 1 hour 30 minutes, adding another 30 minutes falls into the NFW category. Yup, I had to fuel up two times a week on average with ICE, but it was 10 minutes total, and gave me time to use the restroom.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I live in a condo building and can have a charger installed in my parking spot if I request it.

Who pays for it, and how much does it cost?

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by swagon

Current success of PHEVs & BEVs is mostly driven by huge government incentives in the form of lower taxes and/or straight up 'cash on the hood.' And Western governments are pushing their local legacy car manufacturers into BEV production because of their sustainable politics. Further, they don't want China to keep producing the vast majority of EV components (i.e., batteries), but shhh. And, lastly, the biggest secret of all is that in the long-term, BEVs are just going to be cheaper to produce than ICE cars, so there are huge financial savings to be had under the premise that they're all doing it to be more sustainable and eco-friendly.

There's a huge inequality in EV take rate across the globe and across the automotive industry. So far, they (passenger EVs) are just toys for the very wealthy part of the population.

People and companies will want BEVs a lot more once they see that the overall ownership costs are equal to or better than of their ICE counterpart. Cars are just a form of transportation for most; they couldn't care less that their new EV Ford Fiesta or Transit van does 0-60 three seconds faster or whatever.

Don't forget Murky Musk who built Tesla entirely on government incentives (primarily driven and taken advantage of in the state of California) and later double subsidized by the Federal Govt.

When it came to paying taxes, Murky Musk bounced to Texas to avoid paying taxes in the state that built him and still refuses to pay his current federal dues.

There is a ton of politics at play with EVs and the way we are currently going about them is simply not right... and almost entirely propaganda driven.

This is before we ever even get into the discussion of where power from these cars comes from or is generated... or before we even get into how harmful battery disposal... or here is the big one... that there is not enough raw materials on the Earth to produce electric cars at the level of ICE cars at this present time.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Don't forget Murky Musk who built Tesla entirely on government incentives

And now he is arguing against government subsidies. The hypocrisy is mind blowing.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

70-75 miles round trip with sitting me sitting at 80mph 99% of it.

This commute is made for a nice comfy diesel or diesel plug-in hybrid car, but since you're in the US, a gasoline PHEV appliance would be my choice for an efficient motorway commuter. I'd be looking at a Corolla hybrid or similar.

I was regularly seeing ±49mpg in my BMW 320d years ago and doing at least 500 miles on one tank. If that isn't the perfect car for the job, I don't know what is, but hey, ICE bad, EV good.

[yousefnjr]

EVs are not for everybody. Neither are sports cars or minivans. The measure of success here doesn’t need to be ‘everybody has one.’

I live in a house in the suburbs, and plug mine into a slow ass 120v regular wall outlet. Works just fine for my needs (taking the kids to school, gym, errands). No hassle at all and it’s been the only car I’ve ever had with 0 problems. When my wife goes to her 6am workout, she can hop in the X7 if she wants. It’s freezing cold this time of year, and might need gas. Or she can take the i3, which is on a timer to be warm and toasty when she gets in, and will have a full charge. You can guess what she does.

If you require a 6MT, exhaust noise, or road trip capability that’s fair, everybody has their own needs/wants. Saying they’re ‘not ready’ though is a bit like saying loafers aren’t ready because you need to go hiking. Get what suits your needs. Better yet, have more than one pair of shoes.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The $20,000 price delta between a Civic and lowest-priced Model 3 pays for 180,000 miles of gasoline, and that is not including the cost of electricity to charge the EV. Modern ICE cars require little maintenance up to 100,000+ miles. The cost of the battery is the problem. The math just doesn't work.

Some of the next generation of EV's coming are getting less expensive. GM has announced $30k Equinox EV, Telsa has a rumored $25k Model 2 in the works. We are getting close to EV's being equal or the less expensive choice. The current ICE Equinox starts at $30k.

[swagon]

Originally Posted by ASAP

This is before we ever even get into the discussion of where power from these cars comes from or is generated... or before we even get into how harmful battery disposal... or here is the big one... that there is not enough raw materials on the Earth to produce electric cars at the level of ICE cars at this present time.

According to some sources, any battery-powered vehicle (PHEV, HEV, BEV, FCEV) nowadays produces fewer greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) during its life cycle than its mid-size ICE equivalent.

This particular research paper accounted for a GHG intensity of electricity generation of 518g/CO2 per kWh - a 2018 global average.

Decarbonising electricity and fuel manufacturing processes whilst also paying greater attention to recycling and refurbishing are the big hurdles in regard to life-cycle assessment.

But it's really difficult to even want to be 'green' by buying an electric car when CEOs, like idiot Musk, still fly around in their PJs and my plastic shopping bags that I put in the recycling bin end up on the other side of the world, not recycled.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by swagon

But it's really difficult to even want to be 'green' by buying an electric car...

What they need to do is quit selling electrics as being "green". Just keep evolving the technology and make them better than ICE, on the merits of being a good vehicle. Honestly a lot of people don't care if their vehicle saves the planet. It is just a bonus attribute of the tech, not number one on the list for vehicle shopping. The whole climate change nutter stigma around going electric will be a hurdle to get over.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by swagon

According to some sources, any battery-powered vehicle (PHEV, HEV, BEV, FCEV) nowadays produces fewer greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) during its life cycle than its mid-size ICE equivalent.

This particular research paper accounted for a GHG intensity of electricity generation of 518g/CO2 per kWh - a 2018 global average.

Decarbonising electricity and fuel manufacturing processes whilst also paying greater attention to recycling and refurbishing are the big hurdles in regard to life-cycle assessment.

But it's really difficult to even want to be 'green' by buying an electric car when CEOs, like idiot Musk, still fly around in their PJs and my plastic shopping bags that I put in the recycling bin end up on the other side of the world, not recycled.

The problem is most humans do not understand that their existence on the planet is due to the Greenhouse effect and its natural cycling... "Saving the planet" is a ridiculous concept; however, a clean environment is not.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by M3WC

What they need to do is quit selling electrics as being "green". Just keep evolving the technology and make them better than ICE, on the merits of being a good vehicle. Honestly a lot of people don't care if their vehicle saves the planet. It is just a bonus attribute of the tech, not number one on the list for vehicle shopping. The whole climate change nutter stigma around going electric will be a hurdle to get over.

lithium-ion based EVs are never going to be green. In order to make the EV business truly green and sustainable, we would need to switch to rechargeable and recyclable metal-free organic batteries. However, we are still 20-30 years away from that technology being truly scalable and commercializable. Lithium-ion batteries are NOT the environmentally friendly solution Elon Musk and Co want you to believe.

[freakystyly]

Another thing to consider that it isn't about absolute pollution as much as the location of that pollution... personal EVs vs ICE cars are a drop in the bucket if you're looking at global pollution sources.

However pumping that pollution into a highly populated downtown core vs 100-1000 miles away does make a difference to public health. Even if it is going to the atmosphere eventually... so basically a band aid solution. No one points the finger to general consumerism and the shipping industry because we need all that crap from overseas to survive now.

[Germanauto]

Honda doesn't seem to be convinced of EVs either in a recent report. I spoke with a Lexus rep the other day (questionable source of course) but he stated that EV sales in the US have been regional at best.

I say just let the market decide. Invest in infrastructure sure, but EVs work for some people and don't work for others. Why this power play to force it on everyone? Unfortunately politicians, especially EU ones, are more concerned with their egos than they are with common sense, facts, and freedom of choice.

[Sedoy]

Jesus Christ, you sound like no other multi-billion dollar company has ever abused the tax system or never got bailed out with taxpayer's money. Let's be realistic, these are the rules of the game and he plays it, sorry "it's just business"...

Originally Posted by ASAP

Don't forget Murky Musk who built Tesla entirely on government incentives (primarily driven and taken advantage of in the state of California) and later double subsidized by the Federal Govt.

When it came to paying taxes, Murky Musk bounced to Texas to avoid paying taxes in the state that built him and still refuses to pay his current federal dues.

There is a ton of politics at play with EVs and the way we are currently going about them is simply not right... and almost entirely propaganda driven.

This is before we ever even get into the discussion of where power from these cars comes from or is generated... or before we even get into how harmful battery disposal... or here is the big one... that there is not enough raw materials on the Earth to produce electric cars at the level of ICE cars at this present time.

[Marioo]

not yet, maybe in few years

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Honda doesn't seem to be convinced of EVs either in a recent report. I spoke with a Lexus rep the other day (questionable source of course) but he stated that EV sales in the US have been regional at best.

I say just let the market decide. Invest in infrastructure sure, but EVs work for some people and don't work for others. Why this power play to force it on everyone? Unfortunately politicians, especially EU ones, are more concerned with their egos than they are with common sense, facts, and freedom of choice.

Toyota and Honda will be last to hop on the EV train. They don't seem too worried about that decision either.

[Admiral]

and it's a NO from me