[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Everyone says M means no longer what it used to mean, but yet, those same people cannot agree WHEN M was still M as they see it, which kinda defeats the entire argument that M lost its way at all. Did it happen after the venerable E46 M3? What about the E9x M3 with its adrenaline educing V8? What about the F80? Was the G80 the first bad M3? Or is it one of the best M3's?

Depending on who you ask, BMW lost its way decades ago, a decade ago, a few years ago, or they may say they haven't lost their way at all.

The answer is usually, everyone is both right and wrong. The more accurate statement is, BMW M is changing with the market and new generations of people and their needs and wants, so they may not be losing their way, so much as evolving the M brand. Their sales numbers pretty much back that up. A failing M brand would have customer rejecting their cars en masse, but they aren't. Whether you agree with BMWs strategy there is entirely another topic.

Some people will like the change, some people don't. But that don't necessarily make the old cars the best or the new cars the worst, or vice versa. It just is. And often, it comes down to personal preference, nothing more. You got people thinking the E46 is the best M3 ever, and others that think its the most overrated M3 ever...now you want to figure out when the entire BMW M lineup was the best or worst???

If the prerequisite is to have precise agreement on meaning of something before we can make a critique, then no one can be critical of anything because we'd be bogged up on the definition. This is a red herring.

Back in the day, MB fans would complain that C&D, MT and other reviewers were being paid by BMW or something nefarious because they always win comparison tests. They'd say: the Benz is faster, greater g-forces, more hp & torque, etc., check all the objective boxes, but in the final score, the bimmer still wins out. What gives?

What it came down to was purely subjective: the fun to drive factor... better road connection, steering feel, more nimble, lighter, etc. Not everyone can agree on every intangible trait, nor the weight-factor to put on each for proper evaluation, but all together they make a more fulfilling driver-centric experience. It was what made BMW unique. Audi and Lexus tried to copy that formula but failed.

I agree it's more of an evolution than a revolution, but clearly those days are gone. It's not about change as you said, rather it's about the direction of change. You can call this evolution instead of "lost its way" but it really doesn't matter - a rose by any other name, Shakespeare would say.

We know it didn't have to be this way because Porsche has done it. They didn't evolve in this direction (or lost it's way as others might say). Maybe it's a cost factor and BMW is looking more at the bottom line more than Porsche. Whatever the case, if you want to buy a car that feels like BMW of the past, you have to go to Porsche.

[OriginalFake]

Originally Posted by casualDIYer

It's tempting to compare M with Porsche but I don't see the two as compatible. Maybe if we're talking Macan vs X3, sure. But BMW doesn't make a car like the 718 or 911 which are basically race cars for the street. And by race car, I mean a machine with very specific utility and low unit products (I think there were 41,000 911s made last year). Maybe a better comparison is Chevrolet and the C8 vs C7. How many said GM was losing it's way throwing out years of Corvette development? In fact, it seems GM was praised for it. Or when GM changed the Cadillac, from staid blando box to it's current inception. Or when Mercedes decided to get super aggressive with AMG branded everything. A lot of traditional Merc customers didn't particularly like that but one has to sell cars.

Maybe a better comparison was the GTI, that started as fanatic's icon, got worse in versions 2, 3, and 4, and was mega hit in version 5. If BMW wants to do a little wondering on crap designs, sure. Give it a try. We all know BMW will come back to what made it famous.

Agreed with this. People might cross shop them but Porsche is making (and has always made) very different vehicles than BMW, other than the SUVs.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Everyone says M means no longer what it used to mean, but yet, those same people cannot agree WHEN M was still M as they see it, which kinda defeats the entire argument that M lost its way at all. Did it happen after the venerable E46 M3? What about the E9x M3 with its adrenaline educing V8? What about the F80? Was the G80 the first bad M3? Or is it one of the best M3's?

Depending on who you ask, BMW lost its way decades ago, a decade ago, a few years ago, or they may say they haven't lost their way at all.

The answer is usually, everyone is both right and wrong. The more accurate statement is, BMW M is changing with the market and new generations of people and their needs and wants, so they may not be losing their way, so much as evolving the M brand. Their sales numbers pretty much back that up. A failing M brand would have customer rejecting their cars en masse, but they aren't. Whether you agree with BMWs strategy there is entirely another topic.

Some people will like the change, some people don't. But that don't necessarily make the old cars the best or the new cars the worst, or vice versa. It just is. And often, it comes down to personal preference, nothing more. You got people thinking the E46 is the best M3 ever, and others that think its the most overrated M3 ever...now you want to figure out when the entire BMW M lineup was the best or worst???

It's all subjective. Hec, Porsche purists don't like the direction of the new 911s either ("too big, too sophisticated, too expensive, so Porsche has lost its way" ). So, for many diehard fans of past cars, some car manufacturer has "lost their way".

Car manufacturers are in the business of making money for their shareholders. That's their primary goal if they've gone public.

If you don't like a new BMW, buy an older one. That's what the Porsche fanatics do.

And for anyone that says putting an M badge on an SUV is sacrilegious, a sure sign that BMW has lost its way....well, Porsche is making $200,000 Cayenne GT models.

And many of BMW's M SUVs can perform just about as well as their M model cars, remarkably. I have pushed an X5M really hard, and was quite astonished of its sheer power and roadholding capability in such a heavy block of a design. So for those who want luxury, power, handling and space, it's an excellent all-in-one package. And BMW sells so many SUVs that they would be a fool not to capitalize on them (which is why Porsche sells Macans and Cayennes - huge profit centers for them).

I love old BMWs too, the old 635CSi started my love for BMWs. And I've owned 3 BMWs, all M cars. I still own 2.

And yes, I want to move to a Porsche, but only a GT model. The regular 911s just don't do it for me at their price point. I need a GT3 or a GT4/Spyder.

And hec, if you think BMW has lost its way, how about Mercedes? You like that new EQS? How about Audi? I don't see many scrambling to buy vintage TTs and new R8s. How many S3s and S5s do you see in your area?

[TheMaxXHD]

I think the money factor alone is enough to completely disqualify any comparison to Porsche if you don’t mention the cost differential in favor of BMW, as well as potential utility in favor of BMW.

At the end of the day, you buy what you like, for what you can afford. The comparison to Porsche in that regard seems a bit ridiculous. It’s not a fair comparison if you don’t consider price, because you absolutely have to.

Anyway, here I am with my M340i doing just fine because I can’t afford anything more…a new base Boxster (which is not a practical daily for me anyway) with no options is more than I paid for my new M340ix fully loaded. Am I just “poor” (tbh, even a 330i is quite a luxury most people would dream to have, which is quite a good handling car) compared to some people here who insist Porsche is a reasonable comparison?

I don’t get it. I love my car. It’s not even a proper M and it handles better than any car I’ve ever driven. If I listened to every thread about BMWs “losing their way”, you’d think my car is some heavy hunk of brick handling, stupid garbage. Is it? I’d argue for my purposes, it gives me way more utility and enjoyment than a Boxster ever would as my daily. I’d love to have one certainly, but would I really enjoy it more? No, I’d hate all the limitations as my only daily driver car, and get frustrated.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

I don’t get it. I love my car. It’s not even a proper M and it handles better than any car I’ve ever driven. If I listened to every thread about BMWs “losing their way”, you’d think my car is some heavy hunk of brick handling, stupid garbage. Is it?

IMO, being round BMW since the early 1970's, with the New Class 2000 and the iconic 2002 models, I'd say you have one of the best 'all-round' models you can choose today.

Yes, of course we hear the constant "BMW has lost its way", including the M-cars. Some of us have heard this over and over, BMW was "finished" when it made the first X5, when it added diesel engines, even making wagons got a negative reaction.

I've stated this before, if BMW had remained stationary, not moved with the market (and volume), it is almost certain there would not be any BMW, to be moaning about today.

Yes, there are some designs out there BMW enthusiasts just can't get their heads around, I think we all accept that, but let's not be blinkered in understanding the reasons for change. The motoring industry and the typical customer has changed a lot since we were driving models like the E30.

BMW decided years ago, (for financial reasons), to go for the wider market. Enthusiasts alone would not have saved the company.

BTW, not all BMW enthusiasts have an issue with modern BMW models. Some of us can appreciate models from something like the E30, through to the the latest models.

Then we all have choice, nothing to stop us moving where "the grass is greener". Let's hope diehard Porsche enthusiasts are all happy with how Porsche has changed over the years.

[AndreM2]

As a daily driver you still can buy a BMW. Weight and size is no issue.

But for us driver enthusiasts BMW M has nothing to offer anymore. If you make a promotion movie on track with a 1700kg car you have made somewhere a wrong turn!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

As a daily driver you still can buy a BMW. Weight and size is no issue.

But for us driver enthusiasts BMW M has nothing to offer anymore. If you make a promotion movie on track with a 1700kg car you have made somewhere a wrong turn!

Are most M-cars tracked? I sense here in the UK most M-cars are daily drivers, so pretty much suited to the demands of many current M-car drivers. BMW are going to produce what the majority of their customers want.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

As a daily driver you still can buy a BMW. Weight and size is no issue.

But for us driver enthusiasts BMW M has nothing to offer anymore. If you make a promotion movie on track with a 1700kg car you have made somewhere a wrong turn!

Does it though? Are you meaning to tell me a G80 for example is so catastrophically bad on the track, that’d a Porsche for even more is the only realistic option for such “enthusiasts”? This is a matter of price, as it always has been. I highly doubt the G80 is that bad on the track lol.

You do realize right people track Subaru’s and Honda’s on the track just fine? Are you meaning to tell me a G80 is even worse than a Honda Civic on the track, that a Porsche is the only proper option for “enthusiasts”.

Speaking of which, are you also by extension calling those track people with Hondas and Subarus not enthusiasts? Are they not to be included in this? Am I not an enthusiast either? Am I just a regular dude who shouldn’t be considered an “enthusiast” simply because I have to consider practicality, because I cannot afford both a daily, and a Porsche?

You see the problems here? This is why this discussion is problematic.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

even a 330i is quite a luxury most people would dream to have, which is quite a good handling car

Originally Posted by AndreM2

But for us driver enthusiasts BMW M has nothing to offer anymore.

Kind of interesting the very opposing views here. I'd guess the correct answer, if there is one, is somewhere in the middle.

Today's 330i is about as boring as it can get, in my opinion (note stating an opinion), sorry. Hard to think anyone can think that, with experience driving the older generations.

On the flip side to think the new M4 isn't worth its weight in turds is a bit extreme as well. Maybe it doesn't do it for certain people, but it's hard to trash the M brand over it.

The M4, the M2, etc. are pretty great cars. I'm also happy they make more fun versions of things like the X3 or X5.

At the same time it's hard to defend the company when, clearly, they have intentionally gone away from one of the aspects that historically set them apart, that so many people loved. Even if that aspect isn't a tangible or measurable one.

Usually the opinions come down to "it's the best you can get today, for the money", and hey it's largely true. But hardly anyone doesn't also admit or acknowledge "it doesn't have as much feedback and involvement as it used to".

It's that latter thing that's the issue.

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by DanG

I am a fan of the F series M cars but not the G series. But the G series Ms seems to sell well. So I may be left behind but it seems many are willing to take my place.

My M2 may be my last BMW.

I agree with Dan, the F Series M cars looked better and weighed less.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

At the same time it's hard to defend the company when, clearly, they have intentionally gone away from one of the aspects that historically set them apart, that so many people loved. Even if that aspect isn't a tangible or measurable one.

Usually the opinions come down to "it's the best you can get today, for the money", and hey it's largely true. But hardly anyone doesn't also admit or acknowledge "it doesn't have as much feedback and involvement as it used to".

It's that latter thing that's the issue.

But what are BMW supposed to do, when vehicles in general and user demands have changed so much over the years?

I remember the E30 (323i) well, it was small, obviously lighter, as was the competition. NVH, not on the level most users expect these days, we were used to that as part of driving, but it was still a flawed car, if we look objectively. A bit of a handful in the wet. You needed 'skill' as a driver to get the best from it and adjust to its finer nuances. A more raw and involved experience, for sure, then most vehicles of the period were, good or bad.

We all know why BMW has had to change in some ways, weight increases for safety standards, while keeping costs down. Users want more room and creature comforts, which includes improved NVH, M-cars included. Consumption and emissions are critical to engine designs and drivetrain. The list goes on.

Even your typical M-driver these days is the customer with enough money, to get the top model... We all know how branding, status, lifestyle, etc., influences sales and marketing. So different to when I started driving BMW.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

But what are BMW supposed to do

I can't speak for anyone else but it'd be nice to have one car available that kept that interactive / tactile feeling. Clearly at least some people want it.

It could be a version of the M2 perhaps. Take out some fluff, stiffen up every bushing (suspension, shifter, etc.), tune the EPS to actually transmit something to the steering wheel. A version that was more 1M than M4.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by RPM33

I agree with Dan, the F Series M cars looked better and weighed less.

I've owned M models for the E, F, and G series.

The E series NA V8 engine sounds glorious, wayyy better than the F and G series M cars. For a mood-changing thrilling experience, the E is my favorite of the 3. And in many ways, it's more fun to drive a slower E series M car than an F or G. Pure speed doesn't often provide the most excitement.

The F series looks great, but only the CS models drove really well (too much power for the chassis in many cases, unless on a track). And I could never get my F series to sound good, especially in everyday driving (pops and burbles can't save it). Sold it after 10 months.

The G series certainly has controversial looks, is heavy, and is a bit more isolated than the E and F, but the chassis is decidedly better (even in RWD guise). And it sounds better. And is faster. And is more capable on a track, even at 3,800 pounds (a miraculous feat).

Yes, it's a bit more GT than previous M's at its size and weight, but for those of us who like to take longer trips in cars, it's a wondrous combo of top-flight capability, comfort (relatively speaking, because it's still stiff) and tech, with a bit of luxury. And of course, it's quite practical. Many like that combo, and for good reason. Maybe a Porsche Panamera is a good Porsche to compare to a G80, but does that look better? Yes, the Pan is wayyyy more capable, but at what costs? Compared to a Panamera, a G80 is a true bargain.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I can't speak for anyone else but it'd be nice to have one car available that kept that interactive / tactile feeling. Clearly at least some people want it.

It could be a version of the M2 perhaps. Take out some fluff, stiffen up every bushing (suspension, shifter, etc.), tune the EPS to actually transmit something to the steering wheel. A version that was more 1M than M4.

It's coming, you know BMW is going to produce some lightweight versions of the M2.

No, it will never be a 1M, not in size and nimbleness, because the beancounters won't approve such a niche, stripped vehicle for the 3,000 of you who would buy it.

But you know, you can still buy a 1M, they're not extinct. And the F Series M2 CS is quite a car, and still available. So instead of moaning about the cars that BMW is producing today, how about just buying an older model when they made the car you wanted/desired? You can readily update the interior with Apple Carplay and such, and then drive the bejezus out of it (and you miss the depreciation).

If I can't afford a GT3 in the next few years, I'm truly considering buying another low-mileage E92 M car, updating the head unit, adding a supercharger, and driving that car to my heart's content...all while keeping the convertible E93 M I already have (145,000 miles and counting). A supercharged, 650hp, linear-feeling, high-revving V8 is quite an experience, especially at a price of $40k to 50k, all in.

It's a wonderful time to be an enthusiast, IMO. A bunch of thrilling platforms to choose from, even if they're not all new vehicles.

[10"]

Originally Posted by DanG

I think BMW lost its way when they started putting M designations on SUVs. Drove an XM today at M Town. It was as far away from being a track focused auto that one can have. Big and luxurious but not an auto for the track. Far from the Ultimate Driving Machine.

How many X branded BMWs have people seen on club track days? None for me.

This. I don’t even consider “M” SUVs as M cars—I consider them bloated pieces of marketing targeting peeps who can’t drive actual performance cars.

[AndreM2]

I have done lots of trackdays with BMW M cars. But the last ones are to heavy for track.

You feel the weight in cornering to much. It kills tyres and brakes in no time.

[Hassan1490]

BMW is currently the most profitable company in the auto industry.
I guess everything they are doing is in the right direction.
Boomers tears won't change this fact!

https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/most-profitable-automakers/

[AndreM2]

They are booming yes they make lots of profits. But the brand has nothing to do with winning touringcar championships and sell nice drivers cars to the enthusiasts.

They are building still nice fast daily’s and make good profit out of them.

But this brand is far far away from bringing touring race cars from the track to street. Like the E30 M3, E36 M3, E46 M3/CSL the last fun car to drive which was nimble is the 1m Coupe build by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. After that the cars got a lot bigger more horsepower to compensate the weight and it got worse and worse. And now were at a point that we should be glad bmw brings a 1700kg entry level M car. Please it so stupid it becomes laughable!

I am still happy with my X1 2.5 xdrive. It trailers my GR86 and GT4RS to the track. Perfect car for towing. The wife uses it for picking up groceries.

BMW had the perfect M cars. Drive to track do a few laps and drive home again. It was a nice compromise. The drive to and from track is still ok. But 1700kg on track is just plain stupid. The compromise has gone to much to daily and less for track for bmw M.

The thing is you have so much to choose from bmw for daily. Nothing to choose for some nimble lighter driving fun car. Where are the 1340kg E46 M3 CSL in a new form. A new 1m coupe!

No they don’t build them anymore. M is not interested in you and me the drivers enthusiast. They are only after profits.

Look at toyota they bring a 1250 kg yaris gr, 1270kg GR86, they make not much profits on these cars but they make them for the enthusiasts!

BMW M has no interest anymore to do so.

Just Accept it or buy elsewhere!

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by casualDIYer

That and the fact the US has much better demographics than China. In the West, the US and France probably have the best population distribution and a brighter future than other western nations. China? Looking grim over the next 10 years. India is where the future is. Expect more attention paid to India in the next 5-10 years.

Getting back to cars, the US market, specifically it's consumers, have driven a tremendous amount of change to the global market. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it isn't. If US customers truly hated the latest M models, I'd expect to see a change this December, not in 3 years.

As for those considering a Cayman over an M2, dealing with Porsche is a very different experience than BMW. One company is making a sporty road car. The other is making a race car for the street. Very different philosophy when it comes to sales.

As surprising as it is to say, BMW doesn't have much of a design language compared to say Mercedes, Lexus, or even Audi. It seems the latest M cars are the result of a lack of dedication to even the most BMW-esque aspects of their cars. It's clearly a mistake I'm sure BMW is well aware of. Technically though, the B/S58 engine is truly the best engine BMW has ever built and may be one of the best 6's ever built to date for any car maker. BMW has always made very good inline 6s (well, I guess the N54/N55 weren't exactly stellar but that was due mainly to fuel pump and turbo issues, that once fixed, made the engine pretty good except in the early M2 . . . what a mess). The latest M models with S58s perform very well.

For a lot of people the polarizing design of BMW is overwhelming their experience of the brand. Although, design is a key attribute of a brand and what we are seeing is record number of people buying the new products. BMW is now the top selling luxury car brand in the US and also the top exporter of cars from the US by value…

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

No, it will never be a 1M, not in size and nimbleness, because the beancounters won't approve such a niche, stripped vehicle for the 3,000 of you who would buy it.

I'm not asking for a different car, just for this existing one to have the option to lean in that direction. Supposedly they sold a boat load of F87 M2's and think it'll happen again. Supposedly the take rate on the manual transmission is 50% or more. While we're making wild guesses at things, I'll guess that the people taking the stick are happy to actually feel engaged with the car, and if a few bushings were stiffer and the EPS was dialed for a bit more feedback, this group would be even happier.

[Bimmerfun82]

How much of this is nostalgia, or do we have hard facts on performance metrics? The G8x may not feel nimble and analog, and not as fun, but what does these performance numbers these days that’s not $150- $200k? The M3 was always a faster 3 series and so on. If you map out Audi and Merc, BMW has filled almost every gap with something appealing.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

IMO the The pre 2021 M3 CS and M4 CS are the high water marks of the BMW M evolution.

If they would have just made them sound good it would have made all the difference. I don't think it can be overstated how important sound is to sport automotive ownership, and as good as the S series engines are in other ways, BMW completely dropped the ball in the sound department. It's the entire reason I bought an OG M2 over a Comp, and it's what will keep me from buying a CS, as the few bespoke parts don't nearly make up for it.

But I agree that the F series cars are vastly better overall than the G series, and unfortunately for enthusiasts the G will probably be the last pure gasoline series.

Originally Posted by NickyC

Agreed, I don't know what else I could want from a car at this point.

Yes you do. A good sound.