[321]

Any DTL % figure is going to be inaccurate unless you dyno on a engine dyno and a chassis dyno. If its ~235whp w/ the sti and >270whp w/ the 135i then the Sti won't fare very well.

[Propagator]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Is the current STI around 21% DTL? I thought I read that over on NASIOC. That should put the stock WHP at ~235.

I highly doubt that anyone in NASIOC, or any other car forums, knows the DTL down to a couple of percent like that. You don't know what your crank HP has to be since there's a quite a bit of fluctuation from the factory, and then of course dyno numbers are meaningful only as a relative indicator when compared very carefully. The matter gets even worse when you start comparing RWD cars to AWD cars, since they can never even use the same dyno. Also, DTL probably is a function of RPM as well.

The only way to really know DTL is to take out the engine, measure the crank output, put it back in, and use the exact same calibration to measure the wheel HP under the exact same condition.

Sorry, I know I'm repeating things that most of us already know, but I think DTL is one of the less scientific subjects that people talk about in car forums.

[321]

Originally Posted by spinzero

Also, DTL probably is a function of RPM as well.

You can start a whole forum on this subject! This gets debated to the death!
(i agree w/ you) *flame suit activated*

but I think DTL is one of the less scientific subjects that people talk about in car forums.

True! However we can say with some semblance of accuracy that AWD will have more DTL than RWD

[9600baud]

Its starting to grow on me... the red-out tails with a a mean rear skirt can make up for its visual shortcomings.

[ducati]

Originally Posted by MPower

I should add an addendum to my statement: "and without turning it into nothing buy a metal box." Clearly, the obvious solution is to remove every seat but the driver's, remove all the sound deadening material, remove the AC, etc. That probably wont cost you much but all you will have then is something closer to a race car than a real road car. This is what I meant when I originally posted "ruining driveablility".

I knew that's how you'd take it, and honestly, to the extent he's done it... I agree. I mean, no rad fans? The car would be toast here.

But if you critically look at his list, you can see a LOT of weight can be removed without sacrificing comfort or driveability at all. For instance, in the trunk:

Run low intercooler sprayer fluid - about 8 lbs (used to cool IC + spray the windshield)
Spare tire - 30.25 lbs
Spare tire bolt and cap - 0.25 lbs
Spare tire cover - 4.0 lbs
Jack extension handle located under spare tire cover - 0.75 lbs
Jack - 4.0 lbs
Tools w/ carry case - 1.5 lbs
All trunk trim - about 4 lbs
Spare tire rubber pads - 0.25 lbs
Trunk springs - 2.0 lbs

That's 55 pounds. Add a can of fix-a-flat (.25) and a AAA card (.0001lb) and you have no downsides, really.

Really honestly take a look at that list. There's some interesting stuff in there.

But I agree: you can go too far.

[BForbes]

Thank you Ducati for explaining to MPower that its not that hard to shed some weight.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by zba857

Any DTL % figure is going to be inaccurate unless you dyno on a engine dyno and a chassis dyno. If its ~235whp w/ the sti and >270whp w/ the 135i then the Sti won't fare very well.

I cant wait see those 3 cars stock for stock going at it.

[ichiban]

Stock 06 STis are putting down around 220 awhp on the GST dyno.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ducati

But I agree: you can go too far.

I dont see how you are going to get 150 pounds off of the car without removing something of practical use, especially if the 135i does not come with a spare wheel and tire. But like I said, I've got a 20 dollar note on my fridge that says you wont be able to do it with reasonable terms. We'll just have to see.

Originally Posted by onehots2k

Thank you Ducati for explaining to MPower that its not that hard to shed some weight.

Diminishing returns, my friend. The first 50 pounds are going to be a lot easier to remove than the last 50.

[ducati]

Alright, let's get another 100 in the STI. Piece of cake:

Deka ETX9 battery - 25.0 lbs (7.0 va. 32.0)
Hood liner - 1.0 lb
Front bumper cover unnecessary mounting brackets - about 2 lbs
R driver side floor mat holder - 0.25 lbs
Driveshaft protection plate - 4.0 lbs
Muffler heat shield - 1.0 lb
Spec C trunk - 11.75 lbs
Front brake dust sheilds - 2.0 lbs (1.0 lbs per side)
Rear brake dust shields - 1.5 lbs (0.75 lbs per side)
Kosei 17x9 ET 45mm w/ Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 245/40/17 tires - 28.0 lbs
Run a maximum of 35 L gas at a time- about 40 lbs

There ya go, 116.5 lbs. I picked stuff completely at random, things that really wouldn't affect "practical use" as you put it. I even specced in a Spec C trunk, which gets rid of the much-derided wing, and some easier-to-clean rims with WIDER THAN STOCK tires (go skinnier for less weight!). There are many more things in his list that don't affect "practical use," go look for yourself.

There is a breaking point, of course, but 150 lbs. 'aint it. I'd like a case of Augustiner, please, $20 is virtually worthless nowadays.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ducati

Alright, let's get another 100 in the STI. Piece of cake:

Deka ETX9 battery - 25.0 lbs (7.0 va. 32.0)
Hood liner - 1.0 lb
Front bumper cover unnecessary mounting brackets - about 2 lbs
R driver side floor mat holder - 0.25 lbs
Driveshaft protection plate - 4.0 lbs
Muffler heat shield - 1.0 lb
Spec C trunk - 11.75 lbs
Front brake dust sheilds - 2.0 lbs (1.0 lbs per side)
Rear brake dust shields - 1.5 lbs (0.75 lbs per side)
Kosei 17x9 ET 45mm w/ Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 245/40/17 tires - 28.0 lbs
Run a maximum of 35 L gas at a time- about 40 lbs

There ya go, 116.5 lbs. I picked stuff completely at random, things that really wouldn't affect "practical use" as you put it. I even specced in a Spec C trunk, which gets rid of the much-derided wing, and some easier-to-clean rims with WIDER THAN STOCK tires (go skinnier for less weight!). There are many more things in his list that don't affect "practical use," go look for yourself.

There is a breaking point, of course, but 150 lbs. 'aint it. I'd like a case of Augustiner, please, $20 is virtually worthless nowadays.

Haha, i love it! Mpower still dosent get it. But its okay as he's not going to be driving my lighter un-drivable 135i.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ducati

Run a maximum of 35 L gas at a time- about 40 lbs

Ive seen the list you are copying this stuff from. I agree, its impressive. But for much less, I can get much better overall performance by not worrying my ass off about the weight of the floor mat holder. That's where the comment about price originated from. Just with the cost of wheels, I can buy parts that will equate to much, much more performance.

If you want an Elise, buy an Elise.

Oh, and you have to do it for the 135i (though, technically, you still havent done if for the STi). And it's going to have to be a 20 dollar bill for now... I dont think I can stick a case of beer to the side of my fridge...

[Deutsch]

Originally Posted by MPower

Ive seen the list you are copying this stuff from. I agree, its impressive. But for much less, I can get much better overall performance by not worrying my ass off about the weight of the floor mat holder. That's where the comment about price originated from. Just with the cost of wheels, I can buy parts that will equate to much, much more performance.

If you want an Elise, buy an Elise.

Oh, and you have to do it for the 135i (though, technically, you still havent done if for the STi). And it's going to have to be a 20 dollar bill for now... I dont think I can stick a case of beer to the side of my fridge...

You don't have to be a jerk to get your point across man. Learn that not everyone has the same point of view as you do and get over it.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by Deutsch

You don't have to be a jerk to get your point across man.

Because I disagree I am being a jerk? If you think I am being a jerk, I apologize. I am not trying to be. I am only disagreeing.

[ichiban]

everyone has their own views. Some people enjoy being able to own a ligthened version of their car. With the Elise, the car is very unpractical. And to the 1er, the daily driving abilities are incomparable. The truth is, most light weight cars (miata, s2k, elise to name a few) are very cramped cars and 2 seaters. There is also the fact that some people like to work on their cars, and like to make their cars one of a kind.

[321]

Originally Posted by MPower

I dont think I can stick a case of beer to the side of my fridge...

I CAN! (the trick is you drink the beer first!)

[ducati]

Originally Posted by MPower

Oh, and you have to do it for the 135i (though, technically, you still havent done if for the STi). And it's going to have to be a 20 dollar bill for now... I dont think I can stick a case of beer to the side of my fridge...

How do you know I haven't done it to my STI?




I don't think you're being a jerk, it's been fun to banter back and forth. You're right, the 135 is an unknown. With BMWs penchant for over-engineering things, though, I'm sure 150lbs. will be found by onehots2k.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ducati

How do you know I haven't done it to my STI?

Right now you are at 116.8 pounds... clearly, you could get to 150 as that list is very impressive. Now, are you saying that you have done these things to your STi?

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ducati

With BMWs penchant for over-engineering things, though, I'm sure 150lbs. will be found by onehots2k.

Exactly! I didnt fall off my chair and think about this yesterday. This has been in my head for months now and I've been on every bimmerforum looking at safe inexpensive ways its been done.

[ducati]

Originally Posted by MPower

Right now you are at 116.8 pounds... clearly, you could get to 150 as that list is very impressive. Now, are you saying that you have done these things to your STi?

Actually, add the first 55 lbs. to the 116.5 and you're at 171.5. Well beyond the 150lbs. target. :wink:

Yes, my STI is on a weight loss program. I will be doing some things differently than the above list, as I personally want to run a full tank of gas. Sound deadening will be removed, for instance. My interior will look full stock, but I'll lose weight as I see fit. Not sure where I'll end up.

[imported_MPower]

Originally Posted by ducati

Sound deadening will be removed, for instance.

Personally, I couldnt tolerate that. My Miata had next to none sound deadening and it made for a long highway journey. But, as they say, that is me...

[ducati]

I owned an Acura Integra Type R (sound deadening removed from the factory) for about 2 years, drove it on some really long trips, and it wasn't that big of a deal. I thought I wanted something more "civilized" and "mature" and sold the thing for a Lexus. I've missed it ever since.

No biggie for me, as I love the sound of the mechanical marvels we drive.

Now I won't do an aftermarket (read: loud) exhaust with no sound deadening. That's my breaking point for a daily ride. So we all have limits