[RM7]

The “everymans porsche” was the 914 and 914/6. Nothing like that exists today. The 924 tried to do the same thing again, but eventually morphed into the 944 which was no longer the “everymans Porsche”, much like the cayman/boxster is now.

[Suds]

I guess he thought you needed saving, with that Porsch and all.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yesterday, in the Safeway parking lot, I was loading my haul in the hatch of the Z4. There were two young men in white button-down shirts, black necktie and black pants, roaming the lot... One of them politely engaged with me. He broke the silence with, "Hey, I really like your car. I really like Porsches." Yikes! I politely replied, mostly speaking into the trunk, "It's not a Porsche". He probably didn't hear me well and said, "Pardon me?". I replied, "It's not a Porsche!". He then said, "Oh, yeah, a BMW" (EVERY BMW has at least 6 Roundels on it - the Z4 has 8...). Granted, my car is filthy this time of year because the pollen is so heavy, there is no point until June. He was handing out tickets to God.

My next words were, "Dude, calling it a Porsche is an insult... at least to me." Then I let him know my religious affiliation and that I have family "in the business" (Clergy). He finally got the message.

Lordy... Porsche. Ah! My God.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

By that token my X5 is a sports car because it feels almost like a sports car when you hustle it. So is the M8, tand anything else like that. It all depends on where you draw your line. To me, 911 is just the smallest GT car, not some amazing paradigm breaking car.

Yeah we go our separate ways here, the X5 or M8 comparison is pretty laughable TBH. There's definitely a gap between the sedan based muscle cars (M4 etc) and a 911, the weight is massive factor. It's just a different driving experience.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Yeah we go our separate ways here, the X5 or M8 comparison is pretty laughable TBH. There's definitely a gap between the sedan based muscle cars (M4 etc) and a 911, the weight is massive factor. It's just a different driving experience.

Pretty blurry line these days thanks to trick suspension and balance tech.

That said, huge difference in driving experience between 3-4k lb cars, and I'd argue that folks suggesting Xers or 8ers are sports cars either don't remember what tactile communicative lightweight "sports" cars feel like or have never driven one.

It's ok for a car to be a GT or sport tourer! Not everything is a sports car and not everyone would really WANT to drive one every day.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by c1pher

BMW has definitely stepped up their game the past few years. My G87 M2 was awesome and I’m now in an M850i as my DD. It has a lot of the features that are options on the 911 and is just as nice outside and inside.

Since the F90 M5 and the G8x M3/4 and G87 M2, the gap that used to exist with the M cars and 911s largely doesnt exist. I have not driven a 992 that I would prefer to drive over an M3x/CS/CSL that isnt a GT car especially when you consider the price.

[x622]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Since the F90 M5 and the G8x M3/4 and G87 M2, the gap that used to exist with the M cars and 911s largely doesnt exist. I have not driven a 992 that I would prefer to drive over an M3x/CS/CSL that isnt a GT car especially when you consider the price.

Don't agree with you on the M2 is but agree with everything else. M4CS feels better than my garbage TTS did every day I drive it. I would never buy a GT3RS because I already have a 720 so no reason to downgrade. Only thing I'd be remotely interested in is a GT2RS, and the real question is why the hell would I get a 992 over a 997.2?

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by x622

Don't agree with you on the M2 is but agree with everything else. M4CS feels better than my garbage TTS did every day I drive it. I would never buy a GT3RS because I already have a 720 so no reason to downgrade. Only thing I'd be remotely interested in is a GT2RS, and the real question is why the hell would I get a 992 over a 997.2?

All that makes sense. The M2 for its price point is a lot of car though. I do think the M2 CS will be a great package.
It is incredible how special BMW made the CS feel. Definitely more so than the delta from a base or S 911 to a GTS. I've owned a couple GTS model Porsches and largely speaking it's really just marginal at best.
I wouldnt trade a 720 for a GT3RS, especially not at the prices the 3RS is going for. Unfortunately most of them are sitting around with owners not being driven due to the increased speculative approach of Porsche buyers. 992 GT2RS is going to likley be a 750K car with ADMs which just seems laughable when you can have some really insane cars at prices like that, and well under.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Pretty blurry line these days thanks to trick suspension and balance tech.

That said, huge difference in driving experience between 3-4k lb cars, and I'd argue that folks suggesting Xers or 8ers are sports cars either don't remember what tactile communicative lightweight "sports" cars feel like or have never driven one.

It's ok for a car to be a GT or sport tourer! Not everything is a sports car and not everyone would really WANT to drive one every day.

I'm being intentionally obtuse. Of course there's a difference between a 4200lb M8 and a 2800lb S2000. But there's also a big difference between that s200 and a 3500lb Carrera 4s. It's all a matter of where you draw your line of "too much weight", and everyone has a personal opinion on it. Some people like heffers, others like lightweight things that float away in a stiff breeze. Everyone is allowed their own take on it.

That said, for me, a sports car may not have more than 2 seats. Having a 2+2 configuration automatically makes it a touring car, with a different set of things one cares about. Comfort and features and materials becomes much more important because it's intended to be nice as well as quick.

None of this is to say I don't like the 911, I do. I just think it has gotten overly hyped, largely due to YouTube and social media type stuff. It's always been the touring car alternative to a Corvette. A way to spend more money, have a bit more space, a quasi backseat, and be almost as fast as the Corvette. Or spend a ton more money and have a crazy version that is as fast. For a guy like me who has kids now, that's a great kind of vehicle too exist - at a reasonable price point over the Vette. It no longer as at that price point, and has gone insane. I would have a near impossible time paying twice as much for a base 911 with a PDK over something like a Maserati Gran Turismo Sport. Or a DB9. Or a bunch of other cars that are great cars in their own rights, and WAY cheaper to buy and own.

Porsche has become the exclusive country club membership of cars
Where they only allow so many people in, and because it's so exclusive, people assume it has to be amazing. Even if it's no better than anywhere else, the scarcity works magic on our psychology and makes us convinced ourselves it's better.

And don't get me started on their 4 doors. Those are truly just gussied up Audis. Nothing special about them at all.

[dreamingat30fps]

I dipped my toes with the Cayenne. Sure it's not a 911 or Cayman, but it gave me a feel for the ownership experience and I honestly didn't care for it. While I could afford a 911 or Cayman, it doesn't mean I like blatantly getting ripped off at every turn and then expected to pretend to like it.

The dealership experience was not great even under warranty and I tried 2 different dealers. Long wait just to get in, half the time couldn't even get a loaner unless you wait even longer. They would keep the car for a week sometimes without even looking at it until the last day then not doing anything. It was a pita to get them to fix stuff and some stuff they just refused to fix.

I almost bought a Boxster before getting the Miata and the whole experience was just shitty. I specifically wanted a manual and everytime they would get one in I would contact my sales guy and he would either tell me the car wasn't available to view yet (going through inspection) or ghost me then eventually say it sold. I'm 99% sure they were selling them to their "friends" or customers who are buying brand new GT3s or whatever with markups etc. The whole thing felt very pompous. No thanks.

I liked the Cayenne, but not enough to justify everything else. Honestly how many 911 owners are actually driving the cars hard enough to benefit from the minimal incremental improvement in power, handling, whatever vs much cheaper alternatives? My guess is almost none.

[vbb]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I dipped my toes with the Cayenne. Sure it's not a 911 or Cayman, but it gave me a feel for the ownership experience and I honestly didn't care for it. While I could afford a 911 or Cayman, it doesn't mean I like blatantly getting ripped off at every turn and then expected to pretend to like it.

The dealership experience was not great even under warranty and I tried 2 different dealers. Long wait just to get in, half the time couldn't even get a loaner unless you wait even longer. They would keep the car for a week sometimes without even looking at it until the last day then not doing anything. It was a pita to get them to fix stuff and some stuff they just refused to fix.

I almost bought a Boxster before getting the Miata and the whole experience was just shitty. I specifically wanted a manual and everytime they would get one in I would contact my sales guy and he would either tell me the car wasn't available to view yet (going through inspection) or ghost me then eventually say it sold. I'm 99% sure they were selling them to their "friends" or customers who are buying brand new GT3s or whatever with markups etc. The whole thing felt very pompous. No thanks.

I liked the Cayenne, but not enough to justify everything else. Honestly how many 911 owners are actually driving the cars hard enough to benefit from the minimal incremental improvement in power, handling, whatever vs much cheaper alternatives? My guess is almost none.

While this is touching on a bit of a different thing than the original post, I understand and agree with a lot of what you're saying. I more than dipped my toes in, having owned 2 911s, a Cayman and a Boxster, though only one was purchased from a Porsche dealership. I did not find the service or sales experience to be amazing (though it wasn't bad either), but more importantly, I learned that for the type of driving that I was doing, paying the Porsche tax wasn't really worthwhile. I enjoy a spirited drive either solo or with a group, but I wasn't tracking any of my cars nor was I able to push them to their limits. It's another reason why the $150K starting price for a new Carrera S doesn't make sense for my needs. If I'm paying that much or more for a car, then I want it to be a little more exotic and rare. It's a great driving experience, but so are a lot of other cars for far less money. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on Porsche and still kinda want a 981 GT4... but I also realize that the driving experience is unlikely to compel me to spend whatever they happen to be charging for one.

[x622]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I dipped my toes with the Cayenne. Sure it's not a 911 or Cayman, but it gave me a feel for the ownership experience and I honestly didn't care for it. While I could afford a 911 or Cayman, it doesn't mean I like blatantly getting ripped off at every turn and then expected to pretend to like it.

The dealership experience was not great even under warranty and I tried 2 different dealers. Long wait just to get in, half the time couldn't even get a loaner unless you wait even longer. They would keep the car for a week sometimes without even looking at it until the last day then not doing anything. It was a pita to get them to fix stuff and some stuff they just refused to fix.

I almost bought a Boxster before getting the Miata and the whole experience was just shitty. I specifically wanted a manual and everytime they would get one in I would contact my sales guy and he would either tell me the car wasn't available to view yet (going through inspection) or ghost me then eventually say it sold. I'm 99% sure they were selling them to their "friends" or customers who are buying brand new GT3s or whatever with markups etc. The whole thing felt very pompous. No thanks.

I liked the Cayenne, but not enough to justify everything else. Honestly how many 911 owners are actually driving the cars hard enough to benefit from the minimal incremental improvement in power, handling, whatever vs much cheaper alternatives? My guess is almost none.

This was also my experience. So my issue was that my transmission would sometimes have slow shifts when driving aggressively from 2-3 and 3-4. It was a substantial delay of over 750ms to up to 1.5s between shifts which is NOTHING like the PDK normally is. It was a huge buzzkill while you waited for it to decide to change gears. I did a M-Eng TCU tune, and sure it shifted faster, but it still occasionally wouldn't shift correctly. What was necessary was a full relearn of the TCU with PIWIS, but of course, it required a special snowflake version that none of the porsche shops had other than the dealer.

Porsche North Scottsdale can burn down for all I care because they treat their customers like shit.

Porsche Chandler, which I got the car from, had the car for ages and didn't do much to it other than bullshit me that it was going to "take time" when we damn well know it's hooking up a laptop with PIWIS and starting the service operation and let it do it's thing. I never got a loaner, or even so much as "shit man sorry your 283k car drives like shit from the factory" after being gaslight that I was using the car wrong. I had to go film videos of me driving the car to reproduce the issue again and again before they even would decide to take it in to look at it. Why? Because they didn't want me to just drive it to them and demonstrate it to the techs. They were not able to do it themselves. (Then they couldn't reproduce the issue)

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I dipped my toes with the Cayenne. Sure it's not a 911 or Cayman, but it gave me a feel for the ownership experience and I honestly didn't care for it. While I could afford a 911 or Cayman, it doesn't mean I like blatantly getting ripped off at every turn and then expected to pretend to like it.

The dealership experience was not great even under warranty and I tried 2 different dealers. Long wait just to get in, half the time couldn't even get a loaner unless you wait even longer. They would keep the car for a week sometimes without even looking at it until the last day then not doing anything. It was a pita to get them to fix stuff and some stuff they just refused to fix.

I almost bought a Boxster before getting the Miata and the whole experience was just shitty. I specifically wanted a manual and everytime they would get one in I would contact my sales guy and he would either tell me the car wasn't available to view yet (going through inspection) or ghost me then eventually say it sold. I'm 99% sure they were selling them to their "friends" or customers who are buying brand new GT3s or whatever with markups etc. The whole thing felt very pompous. No thanks.

I liked the Cayenne, but not enough to justify everything else. Honestly how many 911 owners are actually driving the cars hard enough to benefit from the minimal incremental improvement in power, handling, whatever vs much cheaper alternatives? My guess is almost none.

maybe I'm just lucky to be surrounded by several Porsche dealerships, but my experience was the exact opposite as far as service went.

I had some cv boot issues with my Cayman that were covered under CPO warranty ...

dropped it off, got a brand new Macan as a loaner, had car back the next day and they even filled up the tank for me....never had that happen at BMW.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by x622

This was also my experience. So my issue was that my transmission would sometimes have slow shifts when driving aggressively from 2-3 and 3-4. It was a substantial delay of over 750ms to up to 1.5s between shifts which is NOTHING like the PDK normally is. It was a huge buzzkill while you waited for it to decide to change gears. I did a M-Eng TCU tune, and sure it shifted faster, but it still occasionally wouldn't shift correctly. What was necessary was a full relearn of the TCU with PIWIS, but of course, it required a special snowflake version that none of the porsche shops had other than the dealer.

Porsche North Scottsdale can burn down for all I care because they treat their customers like shit.

Porsche Chandler, which I got the car from, had the car for ages and didn't do much to it other than bullshit me that it was going to "take time" when we damn well know it's hooking up a laptop with PIWIS and starting the service operation and let it do it's thing. I never got a loaner, or even so much as "shit man sorry your 283k car drives like shit from the factory" after being gaslight that I was using the car wrong. I had to go film videos of me driving the car to reproduce the issue again and again before they even would decide to take it in to look at it. Why? Because they didn't want me to just drive it to them and demonstrate it to the techs. They were not able to do it themselves. (Then they couldn't reproduce the issue)

The transmission on my Cayenne was shit unless you were really driving it hard. Don't get me wrong, I liked it a lot, just not enough to justify the rest of the ownership experience. Maybe I just have cheap taste, but sometimes we'll go to these fancy restaurants and spend $200+ and honestly... I would have been happier just having tacos at the local mom and pop Mexican place down the street.

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

maybe I'm just lucky to be surrounded by several Porsche dealerships, but my experience was the exact opposite as far as service went.

I had some cv boot issues with my Cayman that were covered under CPO warranty ...

dropped it off, got a brand new Macan as a loaner, had car back the next day and they even filled up the tank for me....never had that happen at BMW.

There's only 2 fairly close to me. They did fix many of the issues I had, but it took work on my part. Some of the issues had to go to multiple dealers and keep insisting it's working properly for them to do anything. I also got loaners maybe twice... when I waited several weeks for an appointment. The last time I went in they got me an Uber home and kept it for a week to let me know there was nothing wrong with anything I had brought it in for.

I remember I owned a CPO Cadillac XTS for a while. Now this was a few years ago so maybe it's different today, but I could call that dealer and have a service appointment for the next day. Pretty much drop it off whenever I wanted and they ALWAYS had a loaner ready to go. Literally for ANYTHING. Even if I was just doing an oil change and it was done in an hour they would still give me a loaner. They would also fix everything I ever brought it in for no questions asked. They almost even replaced the wheels because they had some weird corrosion or something on the surface. Unfortunately it turned out the previous owner had changed the wheels to some wheels that while they were OEM they were not OEM for that particular trim so they denied that one, only thing they every denied. Plus that car was significantly less than the Cayenne.

[x622]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

The transmission on my Cayenne was shit unless you were really driving it hard. Don't get me wrong, I liked it a lot, just not enough to justify the rest of the ownership experience. Maybe I just have cheap taste, but sometimes we'll go to these fancy restaurants and spend $200+ and honestly... I would have been happier just having tacos at the local mom and pop Mexican place down the street.



There's only 2 fairly close to me. They did fix many of the issues I had, but it took work on my part. Some of the issues had to go to multiple dealers and keep insisting it's working properly for them to do anything. I also got loaners maybe twice... when I waited several weeks for an appointment. The last time I went in they got me an Uber home and kept it for a week to let me know there was nothing wrong with anything I had brought it in for.

I remember I owned a CPO Cadillac XTS for a while. Now this was a few years ago so maybe it's different today, but I could call that dealer and have a service appointment for the next day. Pretty much drop it off whenever I wanted and they ALWAYS had a loaner ready to go. Literally for ANYTHING. Even if I was just doing an oil change and it was done in an hour they would still give me a loaner. They would also fix everything I ever brought it in for no questions asked. They almost even replaced the wheels because they had some weird corrosion or something on the surface. Unfortunately it turned out the previous owner had changed the wheels to some wheels that while they were OEM they were not OEM for that particular trim so they denied that one, only thing they every denied. Plus that car was significantly less than the Cayenne.

Amen on the taco resturants. Most fancy places are shit anyway, unless there is a genuine enthusiast chef who really is passionate about what he creates. The rest is just marketing fluff.

You're spot on on dealership experience too - BMW is the same for me (Arrowhead or Chapman, to hell with Penske dealers). Drop over a quarter mil on a 911 and maybe want a loaner to just drive away? Haha go slum it dude call your OWN uber, you probably have other cars and if you don't go be poor somewhere else.

[AmuroRay]

It's VW - they absolutely ruined the brand and made it a money printing machine. I think someone posted a video here that showed that the 996, 997 and I think the 991 were almost 1:1 with the 986, 987 and 718 (which was based on the 987) with the only changes being the rear half of the chassis.

I literally HATE VWAG, always have, always will. The 911 has been my dream car since...ever. I've considered a brand for drivers vs a true status symbol like Ferrari or Lambo (also VW garbage now)

But as pointed out, the prices are absolutely insane and it's out of reach for me for the forseeable future. It's all good though, it's just a car.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

<snip>

I remember I owned a CPO Cadillac XTS for a while. Now this was a few years ago so maybe it's different today, but I could call that dealer and have a service appointment for the next day. Pretty much drop it off whenever I wanted and they ALWAYS had a loaner ready to go. Literally for ANYTHING. Even if I was just doing an oil change and it was done in an hour they would still give me a loaner. They would also fix everything I ever brought it in for no questions asked. They almost even replaced the wheels because they had some weird corrosion or something on the surface. Unfortunately it turned out the previous owner had changed the wheels to some wheels that while they were OEM they were not OEM for that particular trim so they denied that one, only thing they every denied. Plus that car was significantly less than the Cayenne.

That the Caddy dealer service department could book you with no real prior notice suggests its service business was slow.

I managed to get my Porsche booked into my local Porsche dealer with no real trouble when the dealer first moved to my town having relocated from Oakland CA.

But over the years the dealer got busier and servicing/maintenance appointments required booking in advance. Sometimes a week or more in advance.

I'm not a business expert but at some point if a business -- like a service department -- is really busy it can raise prices. Sure it loses some business as some customers seek lower cost servicing but the customers that it continues to serve results in more profit.

This is what the local dealer did. My Boxster's oil/filter service -- initially around $150 ballooned to $400!. My 996 Turbo's servicing was also quite expensive. And the service department remained pretty busy. I still had to drop off a car to be serviced and leave it. Fortunately I lived but a mile or so away from the dealer and I'd get a quick shuttle ride home and use my other car until -- sometimes just a day later but more often after several days -- the car in for service was ready to collect.

[Donatello.]

Rich people

[ShocknAwe]

I don't really rate the dealer service experience outside warranty, as I wouldn't consider the quality of service at a dealer (generally speaking) worth paying for. It's typically simultaneously more expensive, slow, and substandard quality.

Find a good independent. Buy cars used out of warranty. Don't judge the car by your local dealer experience.

Oh wait that makes me not their target market.

[M5Rick]

Visited Porsche Guildford on Saturday with my son, the 911 marque has been going on so long since 1965? The cars are exciting no doubt and the saleswoman was almost falling over to make sure I was being looked after, there is also a Motorrad m/bike shop next door that we poked in to see also.
Got to say the Targa would be my choice should the occasion arise, in that dark metallic red and sure it would suit me down to a tee.

[Crimson92]

Originally Posted by ctelimad

I just got my 718 gts 4.0 although not cheap but gives me the real porsche experience NA without paying north of 200k for a carrera s that looks ok and perform ok but has numb , boring fast car
i would rather get a m4 cs for 50k less
I have multiple cars including an g90 M5 as a daily and X5 and yes i can afford a 911 turbo s but i can not justify the pricing of the car close to a lambo or a ferrari
I may pay the price for a spyder rs or gt3 but can not justify 280k for a turbo s or 200k for carrera s

I dont think it is only if you can afford the car , more if it is worth the price and i think it is great car but not work 200k for sure unless it is a gt3..

I’m not saying a carrera is worth 200k but it is far from numb.

Nothing drives like a 911.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

I’m not saying a carrera is worth 200k but it is far from numb.

Nothing drives like a 911.

Except an older 911. Porsche has tuned the 911 experience out of the 911. Haven't had the privilege to drive a S/T so maybe that's where it's at, but I digress.

In modern Porsche world the Cayman/Box is where it's at.

Only 2 seats though...

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Except an older 911. Porsche has tuned the 911 experience out of the 911. Haven't had the privilege to drive a S/T so maybe that's where it's at, but I digress.

In modern Porsche world the Cayman/Box is where it's at.

Only 2 seats though...

A GTS 4.0 is the sweet spot Porsche sports car. For a little bit more I was able to find a very nicely optioned 991.2 GTS that I truly love and hope to keep until I’m no longer able to drive. But if I didn’t have that, I’d have the GTS 4.0.