[LEDZEP]

All I know is, I once had an Altima rental car. Complete POS. You could see that they were trying to make it look like it had ammenities and cool gizmos, but everything looked and felt cheap as hell.

The comparison is just ridiculous.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

I understand what you guys are saying, and agree to a point. But there is one question that goes unanswered: How is it that BMW is (like) the 2nd most profitable mass production car company?
There are two answers to this question:
1. BMW builds their cars much more effeciently than other cars companies and eliminates many expenses by doing this.
2. They offer nice cars, but sells them at a comparitively higher profit margin.

I really think the answer is #2.

I think that both statements are really only one: extremely efficient manufacturing process and pricing the product the hell up.

Although Porsche and BMW are the masters of that domain, Porsche is the leader by much in car business.

[fer360]

I rented an Altima with the 3.5 L engine when I brought my M3 in for service.

All I remember is that is was such a gas guzzler. The power and handling were unremarkable.

[FJc335]

http://stage6.divx.com/user/MyTv/vid...upe-Test-Drive

this saids it all...the engine alone is worth $52K and the rest of the car is just bonus.

[elucas730]

Originally Posted by fer360

I rented an Ultima

They let you rent one?

[Technic]

If anything, I think that BMW knows that the standard equipment in all their product lines are simply lacking relative to the amount of money that they ask for each one of them. And they already started to make "adjustments", starting with the E9x a couple of years ago, and now with the updated 5 Series. I still think that it is not enough additional standard equipment for the price: the X5 and X3 base prices relative to their standard equipment are simply ridiculous. But considering that my first 3 Series - a 1993 318i- did not have foglights, painted bumpers or sideskirts and no alloy wheels (a 1993 Mazda Protegé had more standard equipment for $10,000 less and blasfemy, it handled pretty much the same) then I have at least to concede that BMW at least is trying, but I do not think that they will ever be like the Japanese, though...

[ab00578]

Well if you want lost of replies to your post all ya gotta do is compare a BMW to a Nissan Altima

[fer360]

Originally Posted by elucas730

They let you rent one?

I wish...

[montreal_bimmer]

build quality is cheaper...

[Rewted]

Originally Posted by OC 335i

DAMN did you just compare a BMW to an Altima?

1. Exclusivity
2. Some people don't WANT all those options on the car. These are still performance oriented cars, the less weight for some, the better.
3. Don't compare a German car to a Japanese car. Costs are different.

No, you're totally missing the point. It is about a lesser car having more standard options. A conclusion has been posted way page on page 1.

[homerunball]

Originally Posted by Revlis

The Japanese have been trying for decades to copy the performance and feel of the BMWs. They can work out the performance to a point, but they still have no clue about "FEEL". About communicating to the driver what is going on nor have they worked out ergonomics that are correct. This is where the money goes, I can feel each tire individually, and it's worth every penny.:

I don't understand why people think a company making cheaper cars are not capable of making better cars. Do you really think Nissan "don't have a clue about FEEL"? Do you really think engineers in Germany are all German? Do you think Ford or GM doesn't have the reverse engineering skills to mimic a German automobile? Do you think BMW's cost more because they use "superior materials"? Do you think cars are that hard to make? Please....... They charge what they charge because they CAN, that is economics behind the brand, heritage, etc.

Every company is just as capable of making a car that "FEEL's" like a BMW. In this day and age, every company is filling a market share/niche or competing for a peice of it. If a company is making profits with efficient processes and savvy marketing with products that suit their market, they are succeeding. NOT EVERY COMPANY IS OUT TO MAKE A BMW. We really gotta stop this mindless BMW fanboy rants and get real.

97% of BMW production is automated using the same robotics and programming as the Japanese companies. In-fact a lot of the logistics of placing machines and industrial processes are a direct copy of Japanese ingenuity.

[nissan]

Talking about long term reliability, I fell into all that hype when I bought my Maxima in '02 brand new. At 35k miles, tranny died, replaced w/brand new one (took 7 wks). At 38k mi., wheel bearings went out in 1 wheel. At 68k. mi., tranny died again, replaced w/brand new one (took 5 wks). At 88k mi., tranny slipping again. I, luckily, had bought an extended warranty to cover me to 100k mi., but having no car for months was a pain. All this, despite no hard driving. The car's totaled now so I don't know at what point in time I'd have to replace the trans. again.

EDIT: '02s were built entirely in Japan. So much for Japanese reliability.

[Revlis]

Originally Posted by homerunball

I don't understand why people think a company making cheaper cars are not capable of making better cars. Do you really think Nissan "don't have a clue about FEEL"? Do you really think engineers in Germany are all German? Do you think Ford or GM doesn't have the reverse engineering skills to mimic a German automobile?

Every company is just as capable of making a car that "FEEL's" like a BMW. In this day and age, every company is filling a market share/niche or competing for a peice of it. If a company is making profits with efficient processes and savvy marketing with products that suit their market, they are succeeding. NOT EVERY COMPANY IS OUT TO MAKE A BMW. We really gotta stop this mindless BMW fanboy rants and get real.

97% of BMW production is automated using the same robotics and programming as the Japanese companies. In-fact a lot of the logistics of placing machines and industrial processes are a direct copy of Japanese ingenuity.

BMW IS THE BENCHMARK, the 3-Series IS the Target... This isn't fanboy BS... This is fact. Just look at the competitions advertising, their own comparisons, ON AND ON comparing themselves to BMW in one point or another.

No Nissan CANNOT build a car with the handling and feel of a BMW... They haven't managed it yet, they simply don't get it. Mazda's RX-8 is getting close, and the rest of Mazda's line has a feel to it, otherwise the Japanese have not had any success from what I have experienced... Nissan builds some very nice cars. The G37 is prime example, but if it's anything like their G35 it will be completely soul less, mute, and sterile. Efficient maybe, clever even, and a fine performer, but without any real feel or soul.

EVERY company is NOT capable of building cars that feel and handle like a BMW. They've been trying for decades and they carry on about their BMW like Handling, but as with many things in life, the copies do not work as well as the originals. Ford and GM are both bloated slaves to the Shareholders. They aren't profitable, they aren't really doing well at all, and they are NOT capable of building a Car that FEELS like a BMW they Try hard, they carry on about their Testing in Germany and whatever marketing hype they care to use, then you drive a New CTS-V and realize that Ford/GM truly doesn't get it.

No Not every company is TRYING to build a BMW, this is true, But completely irrelevant... Just about every Car Company out there has one or two models at least that they put up against the 3-series or some other BMW and tout how it's got more of X or less of Y.... There wasn't any fanboy bullshit in my posts, thank you ever so much for looking out...

[E90ice]

I really wouldn't call BMWs rattle free cars. I have rattles in my 335 and had them in my E90 330 and 325.

Thats one part that really sucks for a car that costs alomost 50k.

[ALPINE6SPD]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

I understand what you guys are saying, and agree to a point. But there is one question that goes unanswered: How is it that BMW is (like) the 2nd most profitable mass production car company?
There are two answers to this question:
1. BMW builds their cars much more effeciently than other cars companies and eliminates many expenses by doing this.
2. They offer nice cars, but sells them at a comparitively higher profit margin.

I really think the answer is #2.

The dealership profit margin is very low compared to other makes. The average BMW has about 6.5-7% total markup where the japenese cars over 10%. Also the holdsack percentage is less than just about every other make.
If BMW were overpriced not so many people would want them remember that. They sell a ton of cars so maybe they are not charging enough? Its a business.

[Carlito12]

Originally Posted by tyrewt

Drove past a Nissan dealer last night and caught a glimpse of the 2008 Altima Coupe (a.k.a Poor mans G35). Reading more about it online I was rather set back by standard options on the V6 model for $31,398 (CDN).

- 3.5-liter VQ V6 rated at 270 horsepower and 258 ft-lbs. of torque
- sport suspension
- blue tooth / hands-free phone / satellite radio
- leather
- and a few others I don't recall off-hand.

With a higher base price on the 335i ($51,300 CDN), why can't BMW offer more options as standard equipment?!

because in order to do that, bmw would have to put in Nissan engine, Nissan body parts, Nissan components, etc... cut the cost down...

oh what the hell, go buy yourelf an Altima and enjoy it.. cause i don't have time to teach Business 101...

[homerunball]

Originally Posted by Revlis

BMW IS THE BENCHMARK, the 3-Series IS the Target... This isn't fanboy BS... This is fact. Just look at the competitions advertising, their own comparisons, ON AND ON comparing themselves to BMW in one point or another.

No Nissan CANNOT build a car with the handling and feel of a BMW... They haven't managed it yet, they simply don't get it. Mazda's RX-8 is getting close, and the rest of Mazda's line has a feel to it, otherwise the Japanese have not had any success from what I have experienced... Nissan builds some very nice cars. The G37 is prime example, but if it's anything like their G35 it will be completely soul less, mute, and sterile. Efficient maybe, clever even, and a fine performer, but without any real feel or soul.

EVERY company is NOT capable of building cars that feel and handle like a BMW. They've been trying for decades and they carry on about their BMW like Handling, but as with many things in life, the copies do not work as well as the originals. Ford and GM are both bloated slaves to the Shareholders. They aren't profitable, they aren't really doing well at all, and they are NOT capable of building a Car that FEELS like a BMW they Try hard, they carry on about their Testing in Germany and whatever marketing hype they care to use, then you drive a New CTS-V and realize that Ford/GM truly doesn't get it.

No Not every company is TRYING to build a BMW, this is true, But completely irrelevant... Just about every Car Company out there has one or two models at least that they put up against the 3-series or some other BMW and tout how it's got more of X or less of Y.... There wasn't any fanboy bullshit in my posts, thank you ever so much for looking out...

What makes you think every company is not capable? Any facts????
I know first hand that every company is capable of making a BMW. What do you think a BMW is?? Some stealth super rocket?? Its just a simple H-frame with a motor, some longerons and cross members. I'm not putting BMW down(hurt your fanboy feelings), but I've been in the industry long enough to know that every company is capable of making a BMW or a Porsche. Do you think every part is made by BMW???
Most auto makers use a lot of the same suppliers, duh?? Do you wanna know the percentage?

You create this aura, image of superiority for BMW and its just so ridiculous. Do you even know how they are engineered, designed and parts released? Do you know what kind of analysis goes in to releasing a single part? Do you know what software is used to design a BMW? If you know the inner workings of an auto maker, engineering, logistics, etc. you should know that just because a BMW feels better, that does not mean every other auto maker doesn't know how to make similar cars.

Do you think Nissan doesn't know about what you know? Do you think Toyota doesn't know why their cars feel different to a BMW? When are you gonna grow up and realize that they choose to build the way they build because they are in the business of making money, not because they are not capable?

I've come across countless milestones and developments by countless auto makers all over the world in my time and it is not all BMW and BMW uses a lot of them. So what makes BMW so special and their engineering skills so superior?

THIS MAY BE HARD FOR YOU TO ACCEPT BUT THEY CHOOSE TO BUILD THEY TYPE OF CARS THEY BUILD, NOT BECAUSE THEY LACK SKILL, OR "CLUE" AS YOU PUT IT.

Yes a lot of car makers compare to BMW, Mercedes, etc. and that is called marketing. Ford and GM as "bloated slaves to shareholders"?? I understand it is mismanaged in the corporate side but this tells me how little you know about the auto industry.

GM built the tranny in your car and also made many advances in auto matic torque converters for all of the auto industry with numerous patents pending.
Mitsubishi HI built your turbos. Oh but no, Japanese car makers don't have a "clue".
Testing cars in Germany's N-Ring is for benchmarking (advertising purposes, not to evaluate engineering performance, every auto maker have their own tracks to do that), not a proof that cars from Germany is better.

Get it through your fanboy head that it is economics of marketing and efficient use of engineering to fill a niche/market. Its a business, not a contest to see who makes the best feeling car for revlis. You have no proof whatsoever why they are not capable of making the same type of cars except to mention some of their products that is meant for making money. It is a company's CHOICE to make the cars they make at the price they spend.

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by nissan

Talking about long term reliability, I fell into all that hype when I bought my Maxima in '02 brand new. At 35k miles, tranny died, replaced w/brand new one (took 7 wks). At 38k mi., wheel bearings went out in 1 wheel. At 68k. mi., tranny died again, replaced w/brand new one (took 5 wks). At 88k mi., tranny slipping again. I, luckily, had bought an extended warranty to cover me to 100k mi., but having no car for months was a pain. All this, despite no hard driving. The car's totaled now so I don't know at what point in time I'd have to replace the trans. again.

EDIT: '02s were built entirely in Japan. So much for Japanese reliability.

Is it your opinion that Japanese cars for the most part are not more reliable?

[herbz]

Originally Posted by Technic

If anything, I think that BMW knows that the standard equipment in all their product lines are simply lacking relative to the amount of money that they ask for each one of them. And they already started to make "adjustments", starting with the E9x a couple of years ago, and now with the updated 5 Series. I still think that it is not enough additional standard equipment for the price: the X5 and X3 base prices relative to their standard equipment are simply ridiculous. But considering that my first 3 Series - a 1993 318i- did not have foglights, painted bumpers or sideskirts and no alloy wheels (a 1993 Mazda Protegé had more standard equipment for $10,000 less and blasfemy, it handled pretty much the same) then I have at least to concede that BMW at least is trying, but I do not think that they will ever be like the Japanese, though...

i dont think BMW even wants to be like the Japanese in any aspect, besides their insane reliability.

a BMW is about driving, not about interior gadgets and useless weight-adding options. leave that crap to the other car companies, we dont need it.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by Revlis

BMW IS THE BENCHMARK, the 3-Series IS the Target...

Honestly, it's only the 3 Series is that can be considered a benchmark. The 5/7/X3/X5/Z4 really aren't consistently rated best-in-class by anyone.

-Dan

[Revlis]

Originally Posted by homerunball

What makes you think every company is not capable? Any facts????
I know first hand that every company is capable of making a BMW. What do you think a BMW is?? Some stealth super rocket?? Its just a simple H-frame with a motor, some longerons and cross members. I'm not putting BMW down(hurt your fanboy feelings), but I've been in the industry long enough to know that every company is capable of making a BMW or a Porsche. Do you think every part is made by BMW???
Most auto makers use a lot of the same suppliers, duh?? Do you wanna know the percentage?

You create this aura, image of superiority for BMW and its just so ridiculous. Do you even know how they are engineered, designed and parts released? Do you know what kind of analysis goes in to releasing a single part? Do you know what software is used to design a BMW? If you know the inner workings of an auto maker, engineering, logistics, etc. you should know that just because a BMW feels better, that does not mean every other auto maker doesn't know how to make similar cars.

Do you think Nissan doesn't know about what you know? Do you think Toyota doesn't know why their cars feel different to a BMW? When are you gonna grow up and realize that they choose to build the way they build because they are in the business of making money, not because they are not capable?

I've come across countless milestones and developments by countless auto makers all over the world in my time and it is not all BMW and BMW uses a lot of them. So what makes BMW so special and their engineering skills so superior?

THIS MAY BE HARD FOR YOU TO ACCEPT BUT THEY CHOOSE TO BUILD THEY TYPE OF CARS THEY BUILD, NOT BECAUSE THEY LACK SKILL, OR "CLUE" AS YOU PUT IT.

Yes a lot of car makers compare to BMW, Mercedes, etc. and that is called marketing. Ford and GM as "bloated slaves to shareholders"?? I understand it is mismanaged in the corporate side but this tells me how little you know about the auto industry.

GM built the tranny in your car and also made many advances in auto matic torque converters for all of the auto industry with numerous patents pending.
Mitsubishi HI built your turbos. Oh but no, Japanese car makers don't have a "clue".
Testing cars in Germany's N-Ring is for benchmarking (advertising purposes, not to evaluate engineering performance, every auto maker have their own tracks to do that), not a proof that cars from Germany is better.

Get it through your fanboy head that it is economics of marketing and efficient use of engineering to fill a niche/market. Its a business, not a contest to see who makes the best feeling car for revlis. You have no proof whatsoever why they are not capable of making the same type of cars except to mention some of their products that is meant for making money. It is a company's CHOICE to make the cars they make at the price they spend.

OK... Didn't bother to read your last bit of drivel... All I saw was FANBOY, so I'll say Your an idiot...

Been reading about and enjoying cars since I was a kid, I'm pretty well aware of the market and economics... Simply put, you're all wrapped up in own little predetermined course, I've got nothing for you but I'd encourage you to look around a little bit at the automotive world, if you can get your head far enough out of your ass to do so...

Cheers.

[Revlis]

Originally Posted by danimal

Honestly, it's only the 3 Series is that can be considered a benchmark. The 5/7/X3/X5/Z4 really aren't consistently rated best-in-class by anyone.

-Dan

Hmm Good point... Though I thought the 5-series was still a segment leader...