[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I will start answering some questions whilst I sit on a beach.
Need to sort what is actually being asked?

" BMW can enjoy high profit margins because it has a powerful brand image, build on iconic sport sedan models. Now if they make overpriced FWD minivans, they will make money today, but they are actively degrading the brand image, and risk not being as profitable in the next decade, when only soccer moms will get exited by the idea of a BMW."


FWD as showcased on the BMW Active Tourer Concept is the ideal solution for compact and city cars. less so for larger Premium-entry and mid-sized cars.

Using FWD drivetrains not only does It offer less weight but also more room within the interior. For many prospective customers this is important , flexibility in this certain type of vehicle is essential if it is to carve a new opening in an already busy market. Breaking into this market is crucial as this is where future growth lies , it is also a progressive segment.

Combined with MINI we are looking at a full portfolio of interesting new models that will retain the individuality and of the two brands.
With the Active Tourer customers are also looking for a typical BMW driving experience and efficiency with adequate performance (not high performance).
The compact and city class also allows the diversity of implementing alternative drivetrains.

But if we go back to the 3er and the 5er it is essential to retain the RWD Drivetrain and this will not alter in the foreseeable future.

If for many the brand image is based upon the 3er and 5er as it always has been then I do not see the issue . The interesting aspect of the new 5er is its ability to conform to a multitude of roles , its compentcy still shames cars that sit in and above its segment.

The next generation 5er is all about advancing the car , and also the segment.

But we are in a progressive market and for BMW the MINI's credentials speak for themselves that yes BMW can switch drive trains and do both extremely well.
The Active Tourer is a fine example of a progressive market , as to get a BMW with equal amount of space you have to go for the X5.

At BMW models are not just decided on , especially niche models. There is a lot of work that goes on to evaluate options, there is that logical step to downsize, but we have to establish a market exists as does a customer.
A key example of that is the BMW X6. Already over five years old we are still waiting for the competition to catch up.

Okay, I love this thread. So first off I don't believe for one bit Scott26 actually works for BMW. There is not one corporation in the world that would allow corporate information to be released unofficially (and he never really says anything anyway). But, I'll play anyway.

So you say "Using FWD drivetrains not only does It offer less weight but also more room within the interior. For many prospective customers this is important..." - Ahh, well the Brits figured this out waaaay back in the mid 1950's. Next time you're in London, go over to Mini and look in the archives.... BTW, the Japanese built a world-wide dominant market share with this EXACT vehicle configuration, nice that BMW is finally "catching up" with its competitors. GMFB.

Then... "At BMW models are not just decided on , especially niche models. There is a lot of work that goes on to evaluate options..." - Seriously, BMW does this, but apparently no other car company does? Really. Question, what car company revived the 2-seat roadster market (hint: the Japanese car came out about 7 years before the Z3). How important do you think sweating the details on the new C7 Corvette was for General Motors? Ah, the 'Vette, that pesky little 2-seat high-performance sports car that BMW has no counter point to even at twice the price (not that I'll mention it pioneered the use of composite fiberglass in a production car starting in 1955).

and... "Combined with MINI we are looking at a full portfolio of interesting new models that will retain the individuality and of the two brands.
With the Active Tourer customers are also looking for a typical BMW driving experience and efficiency with adequate performance (not high performance).
The compact and city class also allows the diversity of implementing alternative drivetrains." - Most of the entire automotive marketplace is made up of cars with "adequate performance". And those cars are available at far less price and far more reliability than BMW. Also, just 3 years ago BMW was touting the fact that it was an "Independent" manufacturer because it did not have to "compromise" its designs by Brand-platform-sharing like all other manufacturers do (poke in the eye to VW perhaps?), but now its "okay" to platform share between the Mini and the 1-series. Did BMW finally realize, like every other manufacturer has in the past 80 years, that platform-sharing amortizes the cost of vehicle development over a broader range of markets and vehicles, which provides for high profit margins (or God forbid, lower retail prices for the consumer)?

[Matski]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Okay, I love this thread. So first off I don't believe for one bit Scott26 actually works for BMW. There is not one corporation in the world that would allow corporate information to be released unofficially (and he never really says anything anyway). But, I'll play anyway.

I don't know either way, but it's perfectly possible that it's part of the Social Media department? I mean really, how much critical info has actually ever been leaked?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So you say "Using FWD drivetrains not only does It offer less weight but also more room within the interior. For many prospective customers this is important..." - Ahh, well the Brits figured this out waaaay back in the mid 1950's. Next time you're in London, go over to Mini and look in the archives.... BTW, the Japanese built a world-wide dominant market share with this EXACT vehicle configuration, nice that BMW is finally "catching up" with its competitors. GMFB.

Not sure what your point is, I'm guessing he is referring to the packaging aspects of FWD and it's benefits in compact classes... not across the board. If BMW wants to compete in the compact segment it needs to introduce FWD.. at least they're limiting it to the bottom end offerings and not offering it on the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and Z4... (as a certain other premium german brand might try and do *cough* Fronttrak *cough*)

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Then... "At BMW models are not just decided on , especially niche models. There is a lot of work that goes on to evaluate options..." - Seriously, BMW does this, but apparently no other car company does? Really. Question, what car company revived the 2-seat roadster market (hint: the Japanese car came out about 7 years before the Z3). How important do you think sweating the details on the new C7 Corvette was for General Motors? Ah, the 'Vette, that pesky little 2-seat high-performance sports car that BMW has no counter point to even at twice the price (not that I'll mention it pioneered the use of composite fiberglass in a production car starting in 1955).

Again what's your issue? Scott didn't claim BMW invented everything first, merely that all new products are carefully considered first.. probably as a counter to the assumption people might make that they're just throwing models out there at random - like "the answer to a question nobody asked".

Although... since you mentioned it, the Z1 came out about the same time as the MX-5.. so the segment wasn't totally lost on BMW...

... and I'll take your word on the Corvette thing, since it's not really much of a competitor for BMW outside the USDM.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

and... "Combined with MINI we are looking at a full portfolio of interesting new models that will retain the individuality and of the two brands.
With the Active Tourer customers are also looking for a typical BMW driving experience and efficiency with adequate performance (not high performance).
The compact and city class also allows the diversity of implementing alternative drivetrains." - Most of the entire automotive marketplace is made up of cars with "adequate performance". And those cars are available at far less price and far more reliability than BMW.

So you think BMW's sell based on high performance, even against a high price and lack of reliability(?). Again, that's a very US-centric view. I am interested to know however where you have the pricing information and reliability studies for the yet to be released front wheel drive range?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Also, just 3 years ago BMW was touting the fact that it was an "Independent" manufacturer because it did not have to "compromise" its designs by Brand-platform-sharing like all other manufacturers do (poke in the eye to VW perhaps?), but now its "okay" to platform share between the Mini and the 1-series. Did BMW finally realize, like every other manufacturer has in the past 80 years, that platform-sharing amortizes the cost of vehicle development over a broader range of markets and vehicles, which provides for high profit margins (or God forbid, lower retail prices for the consumer)?

They are not brand platform sharing in the markets that BMW was active in at the time,... so it's not an entirely unfair thing to say.

I know for one I'd rather see BMW's marketing department with it's foot in it's mouth, than see the company expand to the point it can sustain and defend itself from shareholder buyouts.

.. and you seem to suggest that BMW should lower their prices... again I'm assuming you live in America... possibly the cheapest place in the world already to buy into BMW? (like for like)?

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion, just as we all are.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by Matski

... the only real drawback with this is the lack of a RWD saloon option at the moment at that level. For now we get the 1 series hatch if you need a bit of practicality, but the 1 series is going FWD, so I'm guesing the only option should you need a compact 4 door RWD saloon, will be the 2GC.

.. which makes that a REALLY important car for BMW.

And I am perfectly fine with that (the 2GC being the smallest RWD four door), as long as it stays RWD and as long as it stays SMALL. I think what most enthusiasts are afraid of is that if that give an inch, BMW will take a mile.

[snipe]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

FWD as showcased on the BMW Active Tourer Concept is the ideal solution for compact and city cars. less so for larger Premium-entry and mid-sized cars.

Using FWD drivetrains not only does It offer less weight but also more room within the interior. For many prospective customers this is important , flexibility in this certain type of vehicle is essential if it is to carve a new opening in an already busy market. Breaking into this market is crucial as this is where future growth lies , it is also a progressive segment.

Combined with MINI we are looking at a full portfolio of interesting new models that will retain the individuality and of the two brands.
With the Active Tourer customers are also looking for a typical BMW driving experience and efficiency with adequate performance (not high performance).
The compact and city class also allows the diversity of implementing alternative drivetrains.

But if we go back to the 3er and the 5er it is essential to retain the RWD Drivetrain and this will not alter in the foreseeable future.

If for many the brand image is based upon the 3er and 5er as it always has been then I do not see the issue .

I owned several BMW's, including an E34 M5, E32 750iL, E46 318d and at this moment I'm driving the E90 330i. When I need or want a new car, I used to drive to a BMW-dealer and order a car. This all started almost ten years ago with the BMW 120d. I bought it for one (1) reason: I didn't especially like the design, it was a bit expensive, but it had RWD en was the best driving car in class. It was almost perfect and there was just one reason to buy another car: the 130i, which had RWD and the perfect BMW-engine.
But I think those FWD-BMW's are about prospective customers and expectations, so I won't bother you with this feedback from a real customer ;-)

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Matski

I don't know either way, but it's perfectly possible that it's part of the Social Media department? I mean really, how much critical info has actually ever been leaked?



Not sure what your point is, I'm guessing he is referring to the packaging aspects of FWD and it's benefits in compact classes... not across the board. If BMW wants to compete in the compact segment it needs to introduce FWD.. at least they're limiting it to the bottom end offerings and not offering it on the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and Z4... (as a certain other premium german brand might try and do *cough* Fronttrak *cough*)



Again what's your issue? Scott didn't claim BMW invented everything first, merely that all new products are carefully considered first.. probably as a counter to the assumption people might make that they're just throwing models out there at random - like "the answer to a question nobody asked".

Although... since you mentioned it, the Z1 came out about the same time as the MX-5.. so the segment wasn't totally lost on BMW...

... and I'll take your word on the Corvette thing, since it's not really much of a competitor for BMW outside the USDM.



So you think BMW's sell based on high performance, even against a high price and lack of reliability(?). Again, that's a very US-centric view. I am interested to know however where you have the pricing information and reliability studies for the yet to be released front wheel drive range?



They are not brand platform sharing in the markets that BMW was active in at the time,... so it's not an entirely unfair thing to say.

I know for one I'd rather see BMW's marketing department with it's foot in it's mouth, than see the company expand to the point it can sustain and defend itself from shareholder buyouts.

.. and you seem to suggest that BMW should lower their prices... again I'm assuming you live in America... possibly the cheapest place in the world already to buy into BMW? (like for like)?

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion, just as we all are.

The difference between the MINI and BMW City Compact will be evident from appearance inside and out and how the car will drive. The architecture is modular and will be shared across several models which will broaden the individuality between the two brands.

In Europe volume car makers are being decimated by premium manufactures , the potential for a FWD BMW City Compact is there , and especially in other global markets.

The Active Tourer concept shows a typical Space vehicle but reconfigured the BMW way which not only is it more practical but stylish and very sporty looking. One thing you cannot say about the Active Tourer is that it is a typical van with windows and actual embodies more of an actual car like appearance.

BMW and MINI models will not be one vehicle with the brands badge on the front like VW offer in Europe. If you are premium you will not get away with that.

The sports car market is something that has to be done right or else you spend money for no reason. BMW has not offered a Super sports car since the M1 and considering our competitors , we have managed to do well without one, especially if we focus research and resources into current models.

The M3CSL is one example it led to further investigation of utilising CFRP and at that time in 2001 with the first concept it was expensive to use but progress determined that BMW could utilise further within the M3 and M6 and now with further investment we have the advent of two very different cars that have bodies manufactured out of CFRP. And those two cars represent the next generation of BMW especially in innovation and application of material technology.

We are two years from the launch of the all new 7er and that will be an exciting time for BMW.
We will then see those genes passed down between each model.

I have driven many example of the F20 and F30 including F31 , F34 and F32 yet I fail to see where the quality is not perfect. Every example I have been in has been solid , well manufactured and quality evident , the grain texture even surpasses the E90 series.

At BMW the 5er is termed as the business mans car . That is mainly its demographic and the best selling 5er is the 520d , its success is defined by its compentcy and its ability to provide comfort and rejuvenation with physical aspects. A 5er can take anything that is thrown at it.
In the US the demographic is different its described more as a sports sedan for the mid-luxury segment that is perhaps due to the availability of 535i and 550i before 528i and 535d.

The 5er like all BMWs has a global market and Europe remains the largest market for the 5er but globally the 5er remains the benchmark because of its ability to deliver on all levels of compentcy and that includes a dynamic edge.

Also I suggest you give the new 5er a drive as the steering is sharper than before and when driven back to back you can feel and appreciate the changes that have been made.

Image used for illustration.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

So what I took from Scott26's post is BMW is not going to be building AG cars that reflect their past. The 5er and 3er will continue to become more soft and the minority (us enthusiasts) will have to buy an M performance or M car to get performance oriented vehicles. BMW has a new corporate objective, building fuel efficient "premium" mainstream vehicles that are not focused on being the ultimate driving machine. Hey, as long as their shareholders are happy right....

When was this not true? Pretty much since the E28 M5, if you wanted the most entertaining version, you bought the M and ignored the others. If it were any other way, they'd be doing it wrong. The real problem for me is that cars like the E90 M3 and F10 M5 don't appeal to me as they're too GT and not sporty enough. Even the current Z4 is too big and soft compared to the competition.

I'm fine with the added volume and greater sales, but I wish that the relatively small group of enthusiasts would start to get some reward in the form of a small, sporty car, not just nicer plastics and better positioned cup holders. The M2 holds the potential to fill this goal, but it's both a long way away and more likely to just be an M3/M4 Lite than a daring, lightweight and engaging car.

[r3dbimmer89]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

When was this not true? Pretty much since the E28 M5, if you wanted the most entertaining version, you bought the M and ignored the others. If it were any other way, they'd be doing it wrong. The real problem for me is that cars like the E90 M3 and F10 M5 don't appeal to me as they're too GT and not sporty enough. Even the current Z4 is too big and soft compared to the competition.

I'm fine with the added volume and greater sales, but I wish that the relatively small group of enthusiasts would start to get some reward in the form of a small, sporty car, not just nicer plastics and better positioned cup holders. The M2 holds the potential to fill this goal, but it's both a long way away and more likely to just be an M3/M4 Lite than a daring, lightweight and engaging car.

True, the M version has always been the most entertaining version. But what I meant was you were once able to buy a basic AG car and get a car that handles well for what it is. A car that is reachable but entertaining enough to be the best in class performance wise. The F generation AG cars don't handle as well as the used to. They are luxo-tech cars that drive relatively dull. BMW has obviously done this on purpose so I was only meaning to say that in today's time, an M car is the only real non dull thing BMW makes. But people are still saying they messed up the F generation M5 and M6 and nothing is special about those cars either. I haven't driven either so I can't say...

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Matski

I don't know either way, but it's perfectly possible that it's part of the Social Media department? I mean really, how much critical info has actually ever been leaked? - Corporations do not issue public information in this fashion. A perfect example of releasing corporate information via social media is Tesla. Elson Musk releases all such information via social media, not some unverifiable media source on a BMW Forum.



Not sure what your point is, I'm guessing he is referring to the packaging aspects of FWD and it's benefits in compact classes... not across the board. If BMW wants to compete in the compact segment it needs to introduce FWD.. at least they're limiting it to the bottom end offerings and not offering it on the 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and Z4... (as a certain other premium german brand might try and do *cough* Fronttrak *cough*). - My point being Scott26 basically touted that the X6 is some unique vehicle configuration, that the competition has not yet caught up with. BMW now some 50+ years after Mini introduced the front-drive econobox is finally building a like-vehicle (under the BWM brand), who is catching up to who. During the conversion to front wheel drive of the U.S. market in the late 70's and early '80s, BMW would not have been caught dead selling a front-drive econobox.



Again what's your issue? Scott didn't claim BMW invented everything first, merely that all new products are carefully considered first.. probably as a counter to the assumption people might make that they're just throwing models out there at random - like "the answer to a question nobody asked".

Although... since you mentioned it, the Z1 came out about the same time as the MX-5.. so the segment wasn't totally lost on BMW... - The Z1 was a one-off design/manufacturing exercise that turned into a low-rate production run (even though it basically copied the GM Pontiac Fiero in design and construction the preceded it by about 7 years).

... and I'll take your word on the Corvette thing, since it's not really much of a competitor for BMW outside the USDM.



So you think BMW's sell based on high performance, even against a high price and lack of reliability(?). Again, that's a very US-centric view. I am interested to know however where you have the pricing information and reliability studies for the yet to be released front wheel drive range? - Go price a Mini. See for yourself. Not sure how hard it is to equate "The Ultimate Driving Machine" (high) performance. The attributes of the ultimate driving machine being perfect weight balance (not achievable with FWD) to the point where almost every BMW has the battery in the right rear corner of the car.



They are not brand platform sharing in the markets that BMW was active in at the time,... so it's not an entirely unfair thing to say.

I know for one I'd rather see BMW's marketing department with it's foot in it's mouth, than see the company expand to the point it can sustain and defend itself from shareholder buyouts.

.. and you seem to suggest that BMW should lower their prices... again I'm assuming you live in America... possibly the cheapest place in the world already to buy into BMW? (like for like)? - Why shouldn't they? If they are going to compete in the front-drive compact market (dominated by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai), that is what they'll need to do, improve quality and lower the retail price.

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion, just as we all are.

Likewise

[Nkc]

Originally Posted by Carlos_Danger

I didn't even answered you, and several other members agreed with me, i do not get involved in discussions with people with a lower IQ than me, which you prove had with your comment, even perhaps borderline mentally retarded? Because who in their right mind thinks its a good idea to antagonize and offend a guy that's an insider to BMW and that's always helpful and wastes his time giving you free advises and info about upcoming vehicles

That's hilarious. Claiming he doesn't get "involved in discussions with people with a lower IQ than him," yet here he is making accusations that I might even be "borderline mentally retarded." You sure think highly of yourself chopshop doc. Work on your grammar and run ons before calling someone a retard. Don't embarrass yourself.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by r3dbimmer89

True, the M version has always been the most entertaining version. But what I meant was you were once able to buy a basic AG car and get a car that handles well for what it is. A car that is reachable but entertaining enough to be the best in class performance wise. The F generation AG cars don't handle as well as the used to. They are luxo-tech cars that drive relatively dull. BMW has obviously done this on purpose so I was only meaning to say that in today's time, an M car is the only real non dull thing BMW makes. But people are still saying they messed up the F generation M5 and M6 and nothing is special about those cars either. I haven't driven either so I can't say...

X2 Even a 320i should have a firm suspension and a nice steering. Even if you don`t have that much power it should be a driver car and driver oriented. When I decided to buy a BMW the first time and decided to stay with the brand it was also because the brand was different. The brand image was attractive for a certain part of the population but not for all of them. I liked the BMW ''politicly incorrect'' image. I liked the fact they were doing their business not just following the mass. I liked the fact that you had to do some sacrifice to have a BMW on day to day basis. But what remaining of this now? F cars are soft and made to please everybody the brand is cutting on manual transmission, putting artificial feel electric steering and getting rid of the driver connection with the car. The last ''new BMW'' I test drove was a 320i F30 and it just felt like a big camry with a BMW badge on it. Soft suspension, disconnected steering and crappy clutch feel. M model used to be the top in their category if you read recent M5/M6 review it is not the case anymore. I just wish BMW can get back to their root. I feel like BMW is currently where honda was in early 2000.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

I just wish BMW can get back to their root. I feel like BMW is currently where honda was in early 2000.

BimmerMat135, I'm in agreement with your sentiments.
BMW's direction won't make them the first manufacturer to turn their back on those that brought them to the dance. Previous decades are littered with companies that lost their way trying to create broader appeal in that quest to reach new/more customers.

[IancoleTX]

The tone of this thread is completely unacceptable. Scott comes in here and gives us quality insider info - this is BMW reaching out to the enthusiast community with a peek into the details and the future. Appreciate it for what it's worth. Scott is not your whipping post for personal grievances against the brand, he is a valuable resource and should be treated as such.

[immx]

Originally Posted by IancoleTX

The tone of this thread is completely unacceptable. Scott comes in here and gives us quality insider info - this is BMW reaching out to the enthusiast community with a peek into the details and the future. Appreciate it for what it's worth. Scott is not your whipping post for personal grievances against the brand, he is a valuable resource and should be treated as such.

+1

[nicknaz]

Scott26 thanks for the info.

For what it is worth, I wanted to say that as a E89 Z4 35i owner I really wish there was an all out M version with the V8, LSD, weight reduction, and suspension tuning that is about agility at all cost. There isn't a good 2 seater for me to "ladder up" to within BMW, and I'll likely have to go outside the brand for my next car.

Also, I think my wife's F30 335 is spot on for a car that is 95% commuting and 5% canyons / performance driving. The in cabin tech is great, and the option 704 suspension is nice for a street car. I'm good with compliance as long as the wheel control is still there.

Thanks for sharing your info with the community.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Scott26 thanks for the info.

For what it is worth, I wanted to say that as a E89 Z4 35i owner I really wish there was an all out M version with the V8, LSD, weight reduction, and suspension tuning that is about agility at all cost. There isn't a good 2 seater for me to "ladder up" to within BMW, and I'll likely have to go outside the brand for my next car.

Also, I think my wife's F30 335 is spot on for a car that is 95% commuting and 5% canyons / performance driving. The in cabin tech is great, and the option 704 suspension is nice for a street car. I'm good with compliance as long as the wheel control is still there.

Thanks for sharing your info with the community.

As an E36/7 M Roadster owner, I am saddened to see there is no M Roadstser and that the E89 35is can hit $75-80k optioned out. Can you imagine a true M car priced out?

I would like to the see something smaller than the E89, as a conventional hardtop/coupe and fabric soft top, just as they did for the E36/7/8 and E85/86. Make the car 2800-3000lbs, give it the N20 as the base engine, N55 as the top non M engine, and then something interesting for the M variant-a high revving NA 6 maybe. The M car should top out and start under the M3.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Scott26 thanks for the info.

For what it is worth, I wanted to say that as a E89 Z4 35i owner I really wish there was an all out M version with the V8, LSD, weight reduction, and suspension tuning that is about agility at all cost. There isn't a good 2 seater for me to "ladder up" to within BMW, and I'll likely have to go outside the brand for my next car.

Also, I think my wife's F30 335 is spot on for a car that is 95% commuting and 5% canyons / performance driving. The in cabin tech is great, and the option 704 suspension is nice for a street car. I'm good with compliance as long as the wheel control is still there.

Thanks for sharing your info with the community.

Many within the company wishes for an M Z4 but unfortunately the market is small. It is possible to do a ltd model like the 1er M Coupe but there is no decision to do this.
There was the plan to absorb the Z4 iS into the M Performance line but this fell through in the final hour.

We will shortly be presenting our collaboration with Toyota for a new interpretation of a new highly focused sports car first as a concept. The production car will be called the Z5 which allows us to align a new UKL based Z1 with equivalent MINI sports car along with a mid sized Z3 (the name is coming back) which again could be aligned with Toyota.
Although for some markets Toyota might use Lexus branding.

The Z5 Roadster will feature design , both exterior and interior from BMW as well as BMW engines , Toyota will supply optional hybrid technology and BMW will supply CFRP in its construction. A coupe will follow.

The new "Z" design is influenced by the Vision ConnectedDrive Concept Car.

Image used for illustration purpose.

[Red Bread]

Thanks Scott, is there a production timeline for the Z5 yet?

[yousefnjr]

Awesome info on the new Z lineup! Maybe it'll work out something along the lines of:
- z1 fwd
- z3 rwd, soft top
- z5 rwd, hard top, hybrid?

Does the Z3 get CFRP construction as well? Is the M division going to get their hands on one this time around?? So many questions to ask!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

X2 Even a 320i should have a firm suspension and a nice steering. Even if you don`t have that much power it should be a driver car and driver oriented. When I decided to buy a BMW the first time and decided to stay with the brand it was also because the brand was different. The brand image was attractive for a certain part of the population but not for all of them. I liked the BMW ''politicly incorrect'' image. I liked the fact they were doing their business not just following the mass. I liked the fact that you had to do some sacrifice to have a BMW on day to day basis. But what remaining of this now? F cars are soft and made to please everybody the brand is cutting on manual transmission, putting artificial feel electric steering and getting rid of the driver connection with the car. The last ''new BMW'' I test drove was a 320i F30 and it just felt like a big camry with a BMW badge on it. Soft suspension, disconnected steering and crappy clutch feel. M model used to be the top in their category if you read recent M5/M6 review it is not the case anymore. I just wish BMW can get back to their root. I feel like BMW is currently where honda was in early 2000.

THIS is an excellent synopsis. It is fine if the M Division now has to represent BMW's regular-sport level models; it is just a way for them to sell a car a twice the price that it is worth and prices start-up customers out of the BMW brand. It is a convergence of BMW going down-market in performance and the competitors going up-market in performance; with one example being the Cadillac ATS.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Many within the company wishes for an M Z4 but unfortunately the market is small. It is possible to do a ltd model like the 1er M Coupe but there is no decision to do this.
There was the plan to absorb the Z4 iS into the M Performance line but this fell through in the final hour.

We will shortly be presenting our collaboration with Toyota for a new interpretation of a new highly focused sports car first as a concept. The production car will be called the Z5 which allows us to align a new UKL based Z1 with equivalent MINI sports car along with a mid sized Z3 (the name is coming back) which again could be aligned with Toyota.
Although for some markets Toyota might use Lexus branding.

The Z5 Roadster will feature design , both exterior and interior from BMW as well as BMW engines , Toyota will supply optional hybrid technology and BMW will supply CFRP in its construction. A coupe will follow.

The new "Z" design is influenced by the Vision ConnectedDrive Concept Car.

Image used for illustration purpose.

The Z3 revival is now UKL?!?!?!?!?!?!? Please tell me that isn't true



BMW all we want is a small RWD sports car. For the love of all that is holy just do it.

[Nkc]

so you mean we having a
Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4, Z5
1er, 2er, 3er, 4er, 5er, 6er, 7er
X1, X2, X3, X5, X6
i3, I8

Am I missing any?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

new highly focused sports car first as a concept. The production car will be called the Z5 which allows us to align a new UKL based Z1 with equivalent MINI sports car along with a mid sized Z3 (the name is coming back) which again could be aligned with Toyota.
Although for some markets Toyota might use Lexus branding.

The Z5 Roadster will feature design , both exterior and interior from BMW as well as BMW engines , Toyota will supply optional hybrid technology and BMW will supply CFRP in its construction. A coupe will follow.

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WOW. great info thanks.

Your earlier post suggested the need to do a sports car "right" and it is now followed up with a post about "highly focused" fixed roof coupe with CFRP, BMW styling and engines. This is really exciting!

If I may suggest, please have the option for a non adaptive "Track focused" suspension option. I personally find that the adaptive dampers on my Z4 do not have enough compliance so I can not use curbing on corner exit and if it is a bumpy corner exit I can not get the power down quickly. Also, in transitions in rapid succession, such as a slalom exercise, it seems like the suspension starts to compress differently at the end. Perhaps all the weight moving around quickly plus the driver scrambling to recover is a hard math problem for the computers? I think a traditional "track focused" suspension would be more predictable.

Lastly, it would be great to have extra cooling for the car (even if it is extra cost package, like M Sport brakes, that is fine) because the Z435 right now can not withstand a standard 25 minutes performance driving school session. It will get into power reduction mode and then limp mode easily.

Jamesons Viggen if Z4M were an $80k car that delivers performance that is on par with other similarly priced cars like Z06 and GTR I don't see any reason why people wouldn't pay for Z4M. The problem comes when you have a $75k 35is that can not complete with $45k C6 Z51 or even $50k 1M.