[clee1982]

GTR sold at msrp then?, and as low as inflation think it would still up by at least 15% adj for inflation

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

That 2 seconds was off the lap of a gtr 10+yrs ago
Gtr first went on sale for $69,850 back in July 2008
Not that far off from the launch edition zupra today
Btw a 2020 gtr would blow the doors off the zupra
They've gotten quite a bit of upgrades since 2008

Back when Nissan delivered a car that completely disrupted the status quo. They built their own car from the ground up that blew cars away 3x the cost. The C8 is creating that same disturbance from over a decade ago. After the long wait, the Zupra is a complete dud.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

That 2 seconds was off the lap of a gtr 10+yrs ago
Gtr first went on sale for $69,850 back in July 2008
Not that far off from the launch edition zupra today
Btw a 2020 gtr would blow the doors off the zupra
They've gotten quite a bit of upgrades since 2008

Wait, a GT-R is faster? NO WAI!

And a $45k SS 1LE is faster around the track than a Zupra as well.

What's your point?


It seems some of you were expecting a $40k car that was going to keep up with Ferrari's or something.

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Wait, a GT-R is faster? NO WAI!

And a $45k SS 1LE is faster around the track than a Zupra as well.

What's your point?


It seems some of you were expecting a $40k car that was going to keep up with Ferrari's or something.

You're interpretation of the post is all wrong
I simply pointed out the lap times comparison was to a gtr back in 08
Which you compared a 2020 , which has a totally different msrp
Facts are out there for people to make their own conclusions
I don't have a horse in this race not do I have any expectations of the zupra , since I wouldn't buy one

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

It seems some of you were expecting a $40k car that was going to keep up with Ferrari's or something.

Most Supra fans were expecting(or wanting) a car actually built by Toyota. Something in the $75-$85k range would have been ideal. Nissan did it in 2008, Toyota has no excuse with the amount of cash they have on hand. In 2008 Nissan provided a $69k car that blew the doors off 911 Turbo, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. Instead we got a hairdresser's BMW with a fixed roof and Supra badge.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle

Most Supra fans were expecting(or wanting) a car actually built by Toyota. Something in the $75-$85k range would have been ideal. Nissan did it in 2008, Toyota has no excuse with the amount of cash they have on hand. In 2008 Nissan provided a $69k car that blew the doors off 911 Turbo, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. Instead we got a hairdresser's BMW with a fixed roof and Supra badge.

Can you imagine the crickets if they'd brought in an $80k Supra? They'd have sold a few thousand the first year and then none for however long it took to just kill it.

The C8 would have crushed it for $20k less, even if they'd have plugged, what, a V6TT in with 500hp? It wouldn't put the power down like a mid engine car, knowing Toyota it would have had a single clutch auto and been around 4K pounds. They won this round by just not participating.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle

After the long wait, the Zupra is a complete dud.

In what regard? The car fits nicely between the 370z/BRZ and the Cayman S price wise while having equitable performance of the Cayman S. It is actually a great car in that niche group.

Dud because it decided not to try to outgun the GTR and NSX? Yeah they definitely should have tried to replicate their 90's sales flop for sake of fanboy bragging rights.

And, dare I say it, Toyota walked into BMW's kitchen and baked a better BMW with BMW ingredients than BMW has in years.

[hellrotm]

Lets face it...Toyota no longer has the engineering prowess to compete with the R35, either that or the balls to even try. They sell enough Tundra's and Tacoma's to fund a project to compete with their old JDM foe. They gave up after the LFA.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

You're interpretation of the post is all wrong
I simply pointed out the lap times comparison was to a gtr back in 08
Which you compared a 2020 , which has a totally different msrp
Facts are out there for people to make their own conclusions
I don't have a horse in this race not do I have any expectations of the zupra , since I wouldn't buy one

No it wasn't. I was pointing out that comparing a 10-year old, vastly more expensive car is a poor comparison. You'll notice I quoted you where you said:

"Btw a 2020 gtr would blow the doors off the zupra
They've gotten quite a bit of upgrades since 2008"

Which is why I pointed out the MSRP. I would certainly hope a car that has been produced and refined for more than a decade and is DRAMATICALLY more expensive would be faster.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Can you imagine the crickets if they'd brought in an $80k Supra? They'd have sold a few thousand the first year and then none for however long it took to just kill it.

The C8 would have crushed it for $20k less, even if they'd have plugged, what, a V6TT in with 500hp? It wouldn't put the power down like a mid engine car, knowing Toyota it would have had a single clutch auto and been around 4K pounds. They won this round by just not participating.

Exactly. An $80-85k Supra? Sorry, I'm buying a Cayman S at that price point.

I'm pretty sure the largest automaker in the world understands what they are doing.

This is starting to sound like Jalopnik or GRM. "Why can't I have an AWD, manual wagon, makes 500hp, never needs maintenance for 300k miles, and only costs $20k new."

[duder13]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Exactly. An $80-85k Supra? Sorry, I'm buying a Cayman S at that price point.

I'm pretty sure the largest automaker in the world understands what they are doing.

This is starting to sound like Jalopnik or GRM. "Why can't I have an AWD, manual wagon, makes 500hp, never needs maintenance for 300k miles, and only costs $20k new."

Well, at $50K-$60K, it looks like people are saying "Sorry, I'm buying a C8 at that price point." In fact, I'd probably still buy a regular Cayman over the current Supra.

I think the Supra would be more compelling if it was $85k, designed in house, and competed with the 911s and GTRs at a higher price point. Less Z4, more LFA.

[Viffermike]

To the poster who said the Supra has 'equitable performance to a Cayman S': NOT. I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

Anyway ...

TMC isn't the largest automaker. It's one of the largest automakers. Right now, TMC, VW AG and Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi are basically neck-and-neck. GM and Korean Hyundai aren't that far behind, either ...

... which brings me to my point: BMW needed Toyota. Toyota did not need BMW. Yes, Toyota knows what it is doing -- and that hasn't been building world-topping high-performance sports cars since the days of, well, pretty much ever.

I've said this in several other places on this forum and others: the only reason Toyota races is for trickle-down benefits for its consumer products. This has been plainly stated in the company's mission statements since the 1950s. Why does that matter regarding the Supra? Toyota's recent major racing involvement includes NASCAR, WRC and WEC Hybrid/Hypercar. That's it -- nothing even remotely related to conventional sports cars.

That speaks volumes. Volumes.

I'm as disappointed as anyone in the new Supra. But it's really a BMW. Why? Because that made the most consumer and fiscal sense for Toyota. Period. End of story.

[bimmer456]

So far only stock Supras showing up on YouTube. Has anyone tried a JB+ or JB4 yet?

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

To the poster who said the Supra has 'equitable performance to a Cayman S': NOT. I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

Youre welcome to grow up a pair and @ me, it won't hurt my feelings.

Unfortunately we don't have a direct comparison to the 718 s, but we do have some with base and GTS models.

Feel free to explain how their performance differences can be laughable in any regards. And let's not discredit 1.58.9 at Buttonwillow while we are here

https://www.motortrend.com/news/auto...he-718-cayman/

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/rev...porsche-cayman

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by super51fan

Youre welcome to grow up a pair and @ me, it won't hurt my feelings ...

I'm still laughing.

Both comparos prefer the Cayman because of its 'completeness'. The Top Gear reviewer was apparently afraid that he'd spin the mid-engine chassis. (Whaaaa?) Motor Trend hasn't been a serious, objective mag in at least a decade -- and it did zero actual testing of both cars (that piece is basically pre-production fluff) ...

... and Top Gear? The author did his own accel runs. Anecdotally. No controlled variables.

Still laughing. Call me biased (see my sig), but also call me a realist.

Finally: track times are worthless unless the same driver is driving the same car on the same day, back to back. See Randy Pobst's track oeuvre for a reference.

[See5]

Anyone expecting Toyota to build and develop a $80-90K sportscar solo in today's economic climate is smoking rocks.

And this whole Supra vs GT-R thing isn't even historically accurate. The MkIV was an anomaly. Early 90's Japan and its over the top product in general was an anomaly.

People are acting like this car is a failure and its really not. Its still a performer and will be pretty rare on the street. The C8, which is probably underpriced, really rained on its parade along with people just not liking the BMW partnership. Another sportscar on the road isn't a bad thing to me.

[supra93]

Originally Posted by NickyC

The Supra and GTR are supposed to be rivals..

It's more of a Nissan Z and Mazda RX competitor. Even in the 90s, cars like the NSX and Skyline GT-R were slightly more expensive when compared to the A80 Supra.

In other news.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by See5

People are acting like this car is a failure and its really not. Its still a performer and will be pretty rare on the street.

Not for long.

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

... unless you're dead set on a Launch Edition one.

Production of LEs is now finished. Regular Supras are being made at a pretty rapid pace. Approximately 2500 (including LEs) have been already assembled just for the US market alone. This means within a couple of months every Toyota dealer will have several in stock, available for pickup on the spot. Production volumes do not appear to be restricted, so do not expect any exclusivity or limited availability for a non-LE car. Dealers will not be able to maintain ADM for long. Wait it out.

[supra93]

According to A70TTR and other, Toyota is looking to sell around 4,000 units this year. The goal for next year is 12,000 units.

Globally, they are looking to make 25,000 units a year.

Compare to the C7 just in the US:

2014- 34,839
2015- 33,329
2016- 29,995
2017- 25,079
2018- 18,789
2019- 9,731 (YTD)

[supra93]

The BMW inline-six appears to respond well to a simple ECU tune

The 2020 Toyota Supra has only been on dealer lots for a couple weeks, but a U.K tuner company is already extracting more horsepower from the 3.0-liter turbocharged inline-six engine. Pistonheads is reporting that Litchfield managed to return 420 horsepower via an ECU remap. No hardware changes were involved with the tune — this is simply computer work at this point.

As a reference, Toyota says the Supra makes 335 horsepower from the factory — it's fast, and we got even more confirmation of that the other day with the first official lap time being set. If the car truly is making that amount of power stock, then this base tune adds an impressive 85 horsepower. Previous dyno runs of stock Supras have returned conflicting data, but the car may have more power than Toyota is letting on. Due to the variation in dynamometers, climate and cars used, comparing all these cars to each other just isn’t possible.

What is neat to see is that Litchfield isn’t anywhere close to being done yet. The report goes on to say that Litchfield is working to optimize a tune with bolt-on modifications. Litchfield is eliminating the factory particulate filter (not installed on U.S. spec cars) and then giving folks the choice between a Milltek or Akrapovic exhaust. These light-touch changes should net another 20-30 horsepower, according to Litchfield.

A similar tune for other BMW vehicles Litchfield has worked on only costs £600, which translates to about $730. The tune and an exhaust would likely be around $1,500 total, so you could have a 450 horsepower Supra for not a whole lot of money. Of course, Litchfield being a U.K. company, folks in the U.S. won’t be able to take advantage of this tune right away. Litchfield isn’t even ready to sell to European customers yet. This information does serve as a solid baseline for what to expect when American tuners start to unlock more of that BMW power. We’ll be watching closely for that to occur in the near future.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/05/...ne-litchfield/

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle

Most Supra fans were expecting(or wanting) a car actually built by Toyota. Something in the $75-$85k range would have been ideal. Nissan did it in 2008, Toyota has no excuse with the amount of cash they have on hand. In 2008 Nissan provided a $69k car that blew the doors off 911 Turbo, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. Instead we got a hairdresser's BMW with a fixed roof and Supra badge.

i tend to agree; the GTR was also a shock as no one expected what Nissan did... it also came out during a worldwide economic crisis and atill did well... Toyota basically was lazy as funk and even with its cash hoards wouldnt create something outstanding... this doesnt surprise from the guys that still make 4runners and Tacomas with drum brakes, 5 spd trannys and and a 10 year old NA V6 on a false pretense of reliability... imho Toyota is the worst car company in existance.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by supra93

According to A70TTR and other, Toyota is looking to sell around 4,000 units this year. The goal for next year is 12,000 units.

Globally, they are looking to make 25,000 units a year.

Compare to the C7 just in the US:

2014- 34,839
2015- 33,329
2016- 29,995
2017- 25,079
2018- 18,789
2019- 9,731 (YTD)

Holy hell. I'd be shocked if they break 10k globally in the first full year and 6k in any year after that.

I mean, I'm sure BMW wanted to sell 25k i8's annually, but we all know how that went.