[FC4]

LOL @ everyone arguing over driving in the snow. Who fuckin cares. If you live somewhere that it snows, move. Or buy a Range Rover.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

Also, lol at anyone that says these rwd cars are fine in the snow with snow tires. Have you ever driven anything that's above 400 hp in the snow and it's RWD? First of all, the tires on performance cars are all wide as hell in the rear and even the snows are wide. That means a whole lot less traction than your average Honda or 135i. There's also the issue of all that hp and torque being able to properly function in the snow. Even with snow tires, that's a whole ton of power that needs to be able to be put down.

I've driven a Mercedes CLS63 AMG in the snow with snow tires, traction just wasn't there and forget about going up a hill on your first try.

No....I've never driven a 400 HP, rwd, 6 spd vehicle in the snow.....oh wait....I have! It might have snow chains on my hey, I was towing my R1 and the snow was a few feet deep on parts of the highway/backroads that the road plows hadn't touched yet.





That was when it was cam'd, so an extra ~30 rwhp......mine was a factory retard (not a factory freak which makes more power than its suppose to) and made ~360rwhp after the baby cam was installed.

Lots of people drive high HP cars in adverse conditions with no problems. By the way, who cares if you can drive your 700whp Porsche in the snow? I know its awesome to see but you'll get from point A to point B in the same time as the 600rwhp car. And when you get caught in a patch of black ice or an icy patch of whatever, just because you have AWD or 4WD won't mean jack.

[swartzentruber]

Originally Posted by Ezio

not to mention all the cars which are already turbo. like the GTR.

I like when we have a choice to pick turbo or N/A. Kind of sad that everyone you buy now will have to be downsized with two turbos. unless you buy American.

I'll second this. It's not that some of us mind so much the move to turbo, but it would be nice to at least have a choice if you didn't want one. Excluding diesels, here in America it seems like BMW is only giving us two choices in their entire lineup (almost) -- a 2l or 3l turbo. They've already developed the GTS engine -- put the damn thing in something.

I think America's biggest problem right now, from the perspective of the enthusiast, is that they won't make a nice small/lightweight RWD car. The Camaro and Mustang are behemoths compared to something like a Cayman, and the Vette isn't much better. It just seems like all the domestics like making really powerful engines, then need to make the cars relatively big so it doesn't overwhelm the chassis.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

Also, lol at anyone that says these rwd cars are fine in the snow with snow tires. Have you ever driven anything that's above 400 hp in the snow and it's RWD? First of all, the tires on performance cars are all wide as hell in the rear and even the snows are wide. That means a whole lot less traction than your average Honda or 135i. There's also the issue of all that hp and torque being able to properly function in the snow. Even with snow tires, that's a whole ton of power that needs to be able to be put down.

I've driven a Mercedes CLS63 AMG in the snow with snow tires, traction just wasn't there and forget about going up a hill on your first try.

that may be related to the diff. Any car is fine in snow provided it has correct tires. I drove my m3 in the snow and with the diff and (smaller) tires it runs great. You don't want wide snows, rather narrow.

[Slops]

Yup snow tires makes this whole point moot... My c55 kicks ass in the snow with some skinny blizzaks 😱

[swanson]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

No....I've never driven a 400 HP, rwd, 6 spd vehicle in the snow.....oh wait....I have! It might have snow chains on my hey, I was towing my R1 and the snow was a few feet deep on parts of the highway/backroads that the road plows hadn't touched yet.





That was when it was cam'd, so an extra ~30 rwhp......mine was a factory retard (not a factory freak which makes more power than its suppose to) and made ~360rwhp after the baby cam was installed.

Lots of people drive high HP cars in adverse conditions with no problems. By the way, who cares if you can drive your 700whp Porsche in the snow? I know its awesome to see but you'll get from point A to point B in the same time as the 600rwhp car. And when you get caught in a patch of black ice or an icy patch of whatever, just because you have AWD or 4WD won't mean jack.

[Never_Enough]

The last gen V front end looks better IMO.

[gsmooth33]

CTS V is competing against M5
ATS V is competing against M3, with that being said I will be checking out an ATS V when my extended warranty is almost over

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by JAM3S

I bet you have an awesome fedora and sword collection.

not at all, but you go, keep McCarthyism alive.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by gsmooth33

CTS V is competing against M5
ATS V is competing against M3, with that being said I will be checking out an ATS V when my extended warranty is almost over

yet i will cross shop a CTS-V because they are not that far off pricing wise. They are A LOT cheaper than a M5.

[Raikkonen]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Here is the thing, when comparing factory times it isn't. He is cherry picking a time from Motor Trend test. Factory 0-60 for S8 is 3.9. The CTS is going to test quicker than 3.7 as well.

Car and Driver tested the S8 @ 3.6 seconds, and Motor Trend @ 3.5, so yes, I am guilty of "cherry picking" the two largest automotive publications in the country.

My point is that the Audi is considerably HEAVIER and has considerably LESS POWER than the new CTS, yet it will always accelerate faster, wet or dry, because it has AWD. Same circumstances as the S63..MUCH, MUCH heavier, less power, and runs 3.7's.

Will the new CTS "beat" 3.7??? More importantly, repeatedly??? Maybe under perfect circumstances in So Cal, but never with the consistency of an AWD car.

[Red Bread]

All true, but I'd bet it's a lot more fun. Cadillac could build a faster car, but they chose to build what they think buyers want, not what magazine testers want.

I've seen a few S8's and passed them all with my Mazda 3. It's slow as shit, but the driver is kinda nuts.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by Raikkonen

Car and Driver tested the S8 @ 3.6 seconds, and Motor Trend @ 3.5, so yes, I am guilty of "cherry picking" the two largest automotive publications in the country.

My point is that the Audi is considerably HEAVIER and has considerably LESS POWER than the new CTS, yet it will always accelerate faster, wet or dry, because it has AWD. Same circumstances as the S63..MUCH, MUCH heavier, less power, and runs 3.7's.

Will the new CTS "beat" 3.7??? More importantly, repeatedly??? Maybe under perfect circumstances in So Cal, but never with the consistency of an AWD car.

Again...how old are you? I don't know of any grown adults who magazine race like this or consider 0-60 to be any sort of meaningful measurement. Most have the intuition and common sense to know that it means nothing when you're talking about 500+ HP cars.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by Raikkonen

Car and Driver tested the S8 @ 3.6 seconds, and Motor Trend @ 3.5, so yes, I am guilty of "cherry picking" the two largest automotive publications in the country.

My point is that the Audi is considerably HEAVIER and has considerably LESS POWER than the new CTS, yet it will always accelerate faster, wet or dry, because it has AWD. Same circumstances as the S63..MUCH, MUCH heavier, less power, and runs 3.7's.

Will the new CTS "beat" 3.7??? More importantly, repeatedly??? Maybe under perfect circumstances in So Cal, but never with the consistency of an AWD car.

There's a lot more to this car than 0-60. This CTS (and ATS) chassis clearly handles better than any competing BMW, Audi or Mercedes. It's far lighter than all others and stops better too. Cadillac has become the precision driving choice, what BMW once was.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

There's a lot more to this car than 0-60. This CTS (and ATS) chassis clearly handles better than any competing BMW, Audi or Mercedes. It's far lighter than all others and stops better too. Cadillac has become the precision driving choice, what BMW once was.

[Disturbed]

Originally Posted by Ezio

not to mention all the cars which are already turbo. like the GTR.

I like when we have a choice to pick turbo or N/A. Kind of sad that everyone you buy now will have to be downsized with two turbos. unless you buy American.

Agree. For track work no one can argue that NA not the holy grail. I like the way power comes on in NA motors. It's sooth, Liniar and easily controllable. And right now there is not better drivers car than the Viper with its massive 8.4L 645hp/600lb-ft of tq and a good old 6sp. Few NA cars have a better power/weight ratio and even fewer anywhere near the power. I'm a fan of the GT3 but it doesn't come alive until after 5000rpm where as the viper is ready to rock from 1500. If only Dodge would put a DCT or (inserting unholy words) an the 8sp auto on track it would just about be untouchable ESP with the ACR making a come back in 2016.

Rumor also has it the viper is getting a supercharger...with how easy those cars make 1000rwhp-1200rwhp on pump gas I suspect boost would have to be in the 5psi range and still be about 800hp.

DCT and the new autos are better transmission from a Performace stand point. Just a SC and Turbos make more power. But when it come to driving experience nothing beats NA and a 6sp.

[gsmooth33]

Originally Posted by Ezio

yet i will cross shop a CTS-V because they are not that far off pricing wise. They are A LOT cheaper than a M5.

Only reason I will not with the CTS V because no manual option which is a must for me

[Sinful]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

"sub par in performance and quality" ? Lol. Very much the opposite. That's a fool's saying who bought his m3 used and compares it to cars designed 7 years later which btw most still can't match. The s65 was engine of the year for 4 years in a row during its production and is sufficiently exclusive by design that nothing that exist today competes with it.
You're like that american chef i talked about above, because you can source the right ingredients doesn't mean you can cook. There's much more to quality than the average american eye is used too and will notice.

I am not comparing a new Vette to a E9X M3. That is silly because it destroys it in every category. Heck I can compare a older base model Vette C6 Z51 with the LS3 engine producing 436 hp which is 100 times more reliable than the S65. Which also ran the Nurburgring in 7:59 Vs the 8:05 of the M3. Accelerates to 60 and the quarter mile faster also than the M3 and does that without scraping up its bearings.

A fool is one who hides from the truth. I bet all those M3 owners who have to call a tow truck because their engines grenaded really don't care it was voted best engine 4 years in a row... Europeans try to sell sub par as quality, but if it is not based on fact then its all B.S.

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by SinfulM3

I am not comparing a new Vette to a E9X M3. That is silly because it destroys it in every category. Heck I can compare a older base model Vette C6 Z51 with the LS3 engine producing 436 hp which is 100 times more reliable than the S65. Which also ran the Nurburgring in 7:59 Vs the 8:05 of the M3. Accelerates to 60 and the quarter mile faster also than the M3 and does that without scraping up its bearings.

A fool is one who hides from the truth. I bet all those M3 owners who have to call a tow truck because their engines grenaded really don't care it was voted best engine 4 years in a row... Europeans try to sell sub par as quality, but if it is not based on fact then its all B.S.

you're visibly emotional, you're statements are simply completely off and construed. I'm not saying all is perfect with the s65 but the huge majority 95%+ are never going to experience any bearing failure. but i understand you sold an m3 and you are still struggling moving on and probably regretting that sell. I can understand. A Vette is a different animal it does not have the composure of an e92 m3. It's a noisy pushrod engine sounding like a loud sewing machine. Your older model vette does not have the chassis balance and predictability and linearity at the limit that an e92 m3 has. It's lousy interior looks like an impala/ malibu. It's has a prehistoric body design from another age (1970) does not have the refinment and status of an m3 and is usually bought by retired pumblers with their pensions. And for your info several unofficial e92 m3 with stock engine recorded sub 8:00 nurburgring laps beating your vette.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

you're visibly emotional, you're statements are simply completely off and construed. I'm not saying all is perfect with the s65 but the huge majority 95%+ are never going to experience any bearing failure. but i understand you sold an m3 and you are still struggling moving on and probably regretting that sell. I can understand. A Vette is a different animal it does not have the composure of an e92 m3. It's a noisy pushrod engine sounding like a loud sewing machine. Your older model vette does not have the chassis balance and predictability and linearity at the limit that an e92 m3 has. It's lousy interior looks like an impala/ malibu. It's has a prehistoric body design from another age (1970) does not have the refinment and status of an m3 and is usually bought by retired pumblers with their pensions. And for your info several unofficial e92 m3 with stock engine recorded sub 8:00 nurburgring laps beating your vette.

Status? What status? GMAFB. Its a fkn dressed up 3 series. LOL. The M3 is a compromise car built off of a daily driver.

[Vigilante375]

All while an M3 shares the same interior as a base 3 series and barely beats a Mustang GT......

And a LS engine sounds like a loud sewing machine? LOL, really? I'm sorry the ancient pushrod has been doing fine for decade while sounding AWESOME and is doing fine compared to a M3 engine that sounds like a pissed off lawn mower.

[gsmooth33]

I own a C5 vette with 73,000 miles on it....this engine is extremely reliable along with everything else, the car is pretty much bullet proof if you get what I mean and is powerful and makes great sounds when you mash the peddle. Now the interior is extremely cheap and the E93 is a much more well balanced car, I can easily break the rear and control where with the vette I will never take the traction control OFF