[FilipMPower]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

You're making the assumption BMW and/or Audi are trying to build a Porsche - I don't think they are. A 911 isn't an M4 and vise-versa, they're totally different products with totally different price points. Maybe the R8, but I think that's a different product too.

Mercedes-AMG is trying with the GT, sure, but not BMW or Audi. Also, and I'm no engineering expert, but I think Porsche is successful in spite of a rear engine, not because of it.

but tomato tomahto

Yes, you are right, BMW really doesn't have a model to compete with the 911. Audi has the R8, which is pretty different to the 911, and AMG the AMG GT. Wouldn't you want a 911 competitor from BMW? Would be nice, wouldn't it?

However, as BMW probably don't build mid engine cars as they are skilled in Front-mid engine (at least I think they make their engines Front-mid), RWD, I don't think it, or the AMG GT could compete. 2 decades ago, the Rear engine was a drawback, but now the cons of that layout have been faded out with new technologies, meaning the design is pretty much mid engine now. However, the M4 is faster than the 911 in a straight line, but not in cornering, and I think the 911 handles better, Porsche somehow seems to make an electric steering rack feel amazing.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by FilipMPower

Yes, you are right, BMW really doesn't have a model to compete with the 911. Audi has the R8, which is pretty different to the 911, and AMG the AMG GT. Wouldn't you want a 911 competitor from BMW? Would be nice, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by modkrazy

I want a lot of badges so people can see I'm rich!

At least here in the states I'm guessing BMW has never green-lit a 911 competitor because that income bracket doesn't see BMW as its brand. Most rich guys I talk to don't see an M car as rich guy's car ... for their kid or wife, yes, but not for them. It's a market segmentation thing.

Look at the SL63 - MB can sell those at $150+ and the SL65 at $180+ so how about BMW? They have to discount M5s and M6s. Why? Actual rich people don't buy them.

Thus the irony of lots of M-badges is that it appeals to people who aren't rich - market segment fail.

So it makes sense that Mercedes-AMG would build a GT and BMW wouldn't ... BMW has a small window / opportunity to change this perception, however, with electric cars and the "i" brand. The newly rich younger demo may see an i8 like a rich guy sees a SL63. Audi was able to break the segmentation barrier with the R8 - they haven't been able to repeat that, but they did it. The i8 is looking similar.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

At least here in the states I'm guessing BMW has never green-lit a 911 competitor because that income bracket doesn't see BMW as its brand. Most rich guys I talk to don't see an M car as rich guy's car ... for their kid or wife, yes, but not for them. It's a market segmentation thing.

Look at the SL63 - MB can sell those at $150+ and the SL65 at $180+ so how about BMW? They have to discount M5s and M6s. Why? Actual rich people don't buy them.

Thus the irony of lots of M-badges is that it appeals to people who aren't rich - market segment fail.

So it makes sense that Mercedes-AMG would build a GT and BMW wouldn't ... BMW has a small window / opportunity to change this perception, however, with electric cars and the "i" brand. The newly rich younger demo may see an i8 like a rich guy sees a SL63. Audi was able to break the segmentation barrier with the R8 - they haven't been able to repeat that, but they did it. The i8 is looking similar.

I guess it depends on how you define "rich". But I disagree with general the sentiment in your post. An M car is a drivers car. Doesn't matter how rich you are. Maybe you daily drive it. Maybe you track it. Maybe you just have one as a garage queen. It will always be appealing. The M cars speak a universal language. These emotions transcend social stratas.

And you know I'm not just blindly defending M cars, since I'm not a huge fan in the first place. Wait, does that qualify me as rich? Woah. I think I need to go lay down.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

I guess it depends on how you define "rich". But I disagree with general the sentiment in your post. An M car is a drivers car. Doesn't matter how rich you are.

Whatever our opinions are, facts are that MB can move SL63s at $150k+ and even move SL65s at $180k+ and BMW can't move M6s without discounts.

You can lease an M5 for about what an M4 costs.

As for emotions, i was just having dinner with this rich guy (which I will define as liquid $10M+) ... he's got a Ferrari, six 911s of various generations, and a Cayenne and Panamera that he daily drives. He does have an M5, but it's a restored E39. He may buy his kid an M4.

Another rich guy has had just about everything except an M car, currently daily drives a Bentley, and is going buy a McLaren (which is pretty emotional itself). His wife is getting an M6 vert.

It's not like any of this is scientific, but I've never met anyone that breaks that anecdotal pattern and BMW's discounting seems to agree. There are a lot of driver's cars out there and I'm just pointing out that the rich guys I know don't drive Ms.

The point is that when BMW tries to break segment they seem to hit a wall of about $120k; Benz seems to be good up to the mid 200s ... their Maybachs hit the Benz wall. Audi is the same as BMW. To go into higher price brackets you need a new brand like Bentley, McLaren, Bugatti, Lambo, etc. No surprise that those brands are expanding into SUVs

[jadnashuanh]

FWIW, BMW is in the market to make money...not to please all hard-core purists. M focuses on better performance and dynamics than the 'normal' BMW line, and different models push the envelope more than others, but there are limits on what you can do on a road-worthy car. Now, as was said, you could build a track only version, but is the engineering and ultimate sales potential big enough to recoup that investment? THat is constantly being evaluated, and when there's a market they can make money in, it tends to happen. Keeping the improved dynamics is important to the M sub-brand...it's just about how much can they push verses what does it cost, and whether they can recoup. They wouldn't be in business long if they were not constantly making these decisions. There's only so much flow down from a halo car the bragging rights can provide before you soon run out of engineering dollars and sales overall and fall behind.

[MalibuBimmer]

As for Mercedes AMG, lots of people are suckers enough to buy big engined hideously designed refrigerators. And AMG is more than happy to sell them to you.

[RingMeister01]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

At least here in the states I'm guessing BMW has never green-lit a 911 competitor because that income bracket doesn't see BMW as its brand. Most rich guys I talk to don't see an M car as rich guy's car ... for their kid or wife, yes, but not for them. It's a market segmentation thing.

Look at the SL63 - MB can sell those at $150+ and the SL65 at $180+ so how about BMW? They have to discount M5s and M6s. Why? Actual rich people don't buy them.

Thus the irony of lots of M-badges is that it appeals to people who aren't rich - market segment fail.

So it makes sense that Mercedes-AMG would build a GT and BMW wouldn't ... BMW has a small window / opportunity to change this perception, however, with electric cars and the "i" brand. The newly rich younger demo may see an i8 like a rich guy sees a SL63. Audi was able to break the segmentation barrier with the R8 - they haven't been able to repeat that, but they did it. The i8 is looking similar.

Gruss, I'm going to disagree with your opinion on the rich and BMW.

I think brands like Porsche compliment the gaps between each of their models. How many variants of the 911 do they have? Like 15? Lol See the really rich have a lot of cars and the cars they select are usually focused to do one thing. Being driven to the meeting, going skiing, weekend drive and a track sprint are all done in different cars. BMW in order to appeal to these people needs to offer more models, each of them focused to do fewer tasks. But as it looks BMW wants all their cars to do everything.

Companies like MB and Porsche have more resources to develop and offer all the models that they do. IMHO I've always liked the BMW image among the German brands. Mercedes is too old world, Audi is too much VW and Porsche is too vain.

Regardless BMW need to step it up in offering;

M3/4 both RWD and AWD
M2 with turbo 4 and very light weight
A S55 mid engine 911 competitor with a carbon tub.
A v8tt hybrid super car
Please remove M badges from anything that isn't a real M.

But I totally agree with you on how Audi broke this barrier with the R8. Munich needs to do the same and do it right.

[absolutebimmer]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

Aaand this is why we have BMW doing what they are doing, because people think this is the point of M. High power. Nothing else. Not balance, not poise, not dynamic and engaging driving experience. Just gimme more power and something to cool and massage my asshole, and I want a lot of badges so people can see I'm rich!

bro buy a lotus or something. because thats the ride you described.

Almost every non-m bimmer has 50/50 balance, they are more dynamic and engaging than the competitors. Why would they forget this in a M car. I trust BMW.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

Aaand this is why we have BMW doing what they are doing, because people think this is the point of M. High power. Nothing else. Not balance, not poise, not dynamic and engaging driving experience. Just gimme more power and something to cool and massage my asshole, and I want a lot of badges so people can see I'm rich!

Buy something else.