[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gthal

I loved the Stingray... didn't love the lack of rear seat. I also love my BMW's and they fit better for me today. I always buy cars that interest me and fit my needs the best... regardless of anything else. I don't love the seating position and view from the Camaro... or the retro'ish dash... so it isn't a car I really want but that isn't to say it isn't an amazing car.

My point, really, was that people shouldn't dismiss cars simply because of their brand or some antiquated or snobbish views.

I meant the Chevy SS not the Camaro SS. Buddy of mine just got an SS. Excellent vehicle.

[MKSixer]

I am a dyed-in-the-wool BMW guy and, more importantly, a true auto enthusiast and to dismiss these two offerings from Chevrolet is sheer folly.

I first saw the new Corvette at the 2013 NY Auto Show and was thoroughly impressed. I have friends with the new Corvette ZR1 and it is a monster.

They have engineered amazing packages, especially in the ZO6 and ZR1. Motor Trend's CoTY choice is relevant to the consumer base that they target and they bring world class performance in an easy to acquire (relatively) and maintain package.

Cheers-mk

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Leaf springs.

:: drops mic ::

Oh Gawd! What's your point?

Have you ever read anything or driven a Corvette? I'm pretty sure that the standard Stingray will smoke an M4 around the track. Seven seconds is an eternity on the track.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2014-feature

BMW has nothing to compare to a Z06 either. That too has leaf springs and it smokes cars costing twice to three times the price (yes, the new Ferrari 488GTB is SLOWER than the Z06 around the track). Z06 is 14 seconds quicker than the M4 too.

Get off your "high horse" and look at things realistically instead of just trying to throw out jabs about something you don't even understand.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

Get off your "high horse" and look at things realistically instead of just trying to throw out jabs about something you don't even understand.

To everyone who believes my leaf-spring post was a clueless jab: It partially was. But it was meant to be. I was encouraging discussion, gentlemen, based on a firm (pun partially intended) personal and technical belief that leaf springs have limited applications in modern car design. (And, for that matter, so do pushrods -- but that's getting off topic.) I view it as a cheap 'out' by Chevy -- which has a tendency to use a lot of them historically -- as applied to the Camaro and Corvette. IMHO, of course -- we're all entitled to them.

I'm not going to get any more defensive on this forum regarding this; it just riles people up unnecessarily to the point of making unfair personal assumptions and attacks, even many days later as this poster demonstrates. Hey, get it out if you have to; I rather enjoy being a punching bag. I've partially made a couple of careers out of it, actually -- that and being more 'realistic' than most because I consider alternate viewpoints by intellectual and situational default.



Cheers, gentlemen.

[RM7]

xpost from the other site:

Again, I'd share your agreement that this is partially true.

I have studied ergonomics greatly, it's part of my master's degree.

I find many of the ergonomics are exactly the same, or similar. High front hood and door sills? Check. Gives some nice lines, but restricts the view a bit. The camaro has a much higher front hood, but I like to sit as low as possible in my cars, so the 4 series isn't dramatically better here. The 4 GC I have has nearly the exact same size rear window, so no different there. Both cars have backup cameras, so no difference. Both have the dual-pull door handles and door lock buttons in similar spots. Window buttons, cruise control and radio all work almost exactly the same. Bluetooth hookup and voice recognition is similar. Those "auxillary" gauges in the camaro? Those are kind of for show, nothing there you need to look at while driving (that's why it's an option). Both cars are a little difficult to get in and out of, due to being fairly low, although the camaro is lower because it's a lower car with a significantly lower CG, this is one of the costs of good handling. The "ideal" car for someone that has limited mobility is something like a ford ranger or minivan, as far as getting in and out. The SS has big tall seats with headrests to support you, so not very different. The bolsters on the 4 are nice, but people seem to make these 4 series sports seats as some sort of sports car triumph, err, no, they are acceptable, but nothing special. The camaro wheel is nice, bit fat wheel with stitching, good feel, not crazy light like the BMW "comfort" setting. As an aside, the turning radius in the camaro is actually pretty impressive given it's size, making u-turns and other turns I find the 4 doesn't turn quite as tight, not a huge issue, but interesting. The places where the camaro really does have some issues are ones that are to be expected wtih a performance orientated coupe, like backseats that are fit for leprechans or something (but good useful space for groceries, etc), the small trunk opening despite the fairly large trunk, hey, at least the folding rear seats are standard. The reduced visibility caused by the small windows, it looks cool as heck IMO, but yeah, it's all part of the tradeoff of the chopped roofline and low center of gravity. What's the rear visibility like in a Lamborghini? Wait, don't answer that.

After owning one for quite a few years, I can see why the new version has won all the accolades. They designed the previous version as a serious car from the beginning, not as a straight-line performer and not as a "looks only" type thing. 52/48 weight bias, low CG with the engine that sits low and behind the front wheels, 3850lb for the manual trans SS (yeah, I don't recommend the 4200lb convertible auto, that's not the "serious" car), much bigger gas tank than the mustang (look at the latest mustang, the gas tank is a joke), tons of torque from the 6.2 and it loves to purr around at 1000rpm all day until you are ready to wake it up, staggered setup wtih decent rubber, and so on.

I too realize there are cars the american manufacturers have made that are simply "jokes", they were not serious nor intended to be any kind of competition. As I've said before, it makes you want to find the engineers/designers and punch them in the face, for trying to pass stuff off as "acceptable". The G8, SS, CTS-V, ATS-V, Z06, Stingray, GT350R, Focus RS and others are not these cars. I've experienced the ergonomics in more than a few of these and they are miles ahead of cars from the past. I've also experienced newish cars that are trainwrecks, like the Chrysler 200, you got all these big circular knobs and one controls the transmission, others do something to the car, but not to the transmission, so you are left wondering which knob you are turning and if it's going to suddenly put you into neutral or something crazy, because it was designed by a moron. These cars should be called out, but there seem to be some crazy biases that exist that assume anything that comes from Germany MUST be better. When the performance advantage disappears, then people insist there is something else that MUST be better. These days I don't think there's anything one manufacturer can be doing that can't be replicated by another that wants to compete, and that's the biggest difference with the most recent american cars that are serious about taking on german and other foreign performance cars. They finally want to compete. And now, as we move onto 3500lb+ M2s, it's tilting further and further in favor of some of these american cars.

I go with what I think is the best for me at the time, it could be practicality as far as efficiency, or storage, or terrain ability. Or, it could be performance and driving experience. I don't think any one manufacturer has some kind of a trademark on these things and I've had a pretty wide range of cars to compare from. I just get tired of the non-stop "well....this car is better because it is a (insert loyaty here)".

[fcman]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

Oh Gawd! What's your point?

Have you ever read anything or driven a Corvette? I'm pretty sure that the standard Stingray will smoke an M4 around the track. Seven seconds is an eternity on the track.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2014-feature

BMW has nothing to compare to a Z06 either. That too has leaf springs and it smokes cars costing twice to three times the price

Originally Posted by Viffermike

To everyone who believes my leaf-spring post was a clueless jab: It partially was. But it was meant to be. I was encouraging discussion, gentlemen, based on a firm (pun partially intended) personal and technical belief that leaf springs have limited applications in modern car design. (And, for that matter, so do pushrods -- but that's getting off topic.) I view it as a cheap 'out' by Chevy -- which has a tendency to use a lot of them historically -- as applied to the Camaro and Corvette. IMHO, of course -- we're all entitled to them.

The

Camaro

Does

Not

Have

Leaf

Springs

It has not had leaf springs since the early 80s

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by fcman

The

Camaro

Does

Not

Have

Leaf

Springs

It has not had leaf springs since the early 80s

I know. I've owned '65, '69 (427 big block), '97 and '06 (Z06) Vettes. I thought he was crossing over to the Stingray part of this thread (hence my response only references the Stingray and Z06).

Viffermike: I'm not sure what you mean by "cheap out." Again, it just seems like you're completely clueless about these cars and living in the past (like 1970s past). The 1984 Corvette set the car world on fire due to it's handling compared to any other car at the time. The 1997 did the same thing and now the new Stingray and Z06 are world-class in handling, so I can't even comprehend where you're coming from.
BTW: Encouraging a discussion would be to give your point of view and reasons why. Two word responses don't.

Just a quick jab on the push-rod thing: The Z/28 has a pushrod engine that was designed 10 years ago. The new GT350 had a state of the art flat-plane crank with multi-valve OHC engine. They were both put on the chassis dyno and made the exact same HP, but the antiquated push-rod engine made a ton more torque at a much lower RPM. That equals flexibility. The pushrod engine is also more compact and that one doesn't even have variable valve timing as the new LT engines do.

[Red Bread]

Of course a pushrod V8 makes more torque than a flat plane DOHC one. Just like the S55 makes more torque than the S65. Doesn't make one better than the other, just different. Some of us like revs.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Of course a pushrod V8 makes more torque than a flat plane DOHC one. Just like the S55 makes more torque than the S65. Doesn't make one better than the other, just different. Some of us like revs.

Not to mention the LS7 has a 1.8L advantage, I'd be concerned if it didn't make more torque. Still love the LS7 though

[FriskyDingo]

The LS7 is a fantastic engine. I've driven a Z/28 pretty hard on a few occasions, and it is an absolutely mega car. Tremendously enjoyable and confidence-inspiring. Probably the most fun car I've ever driven, I'd say.

[A2Z]

Funny, considering how much hate there is for this car on this forum.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/motor...#slide-3717028

[fecurtis]

http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1196150

[A2Z]

Oops... my bad

[the_phew]

Bravo GM!

Now put this chassis/powertrain/interior in a car with actual windows and 4 doors, and I'll buy one. And no, the ATS doesn't count (worse interior, gauge cluster from a '94 Cavalier, no V8, no 6MT+V6).

[tex2670]

Oh good--let's drum up some more Camaro discussions.

[mike@Vossen]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

xpost from the other site:

Nice read! We just did some R&D on the new Camaro and its very well done.

Here is a pic o the 2015 vs 2016

[AudiA4]

It's hard to argue with their decision...though one could make a strong case for the Mustang Shelby GT350 (flat crank...8,300 RPM redline).

[Gastoys]

Originally Posted by A2Z

Funny, considering how much hate there is for this car on this forum.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/motor...#slide-3717028

Of course, Obama motors wins again.

[oonowindoo]

I am very surprised that the GT350 did not get the award...

I typically do not like Domestic cars. That 8k+ redline just triggers something in my brain...maybe it has something to do with the 2 s2000s i have had before.

[Chief Kronos]

At first I thought the publication had lost most of it's creditability with it's choice, but I realized that price is a large factor. Basically best bang for your buck, but at what cost?

[CIWS]

Congrats to the new Camaro, looks like it deserved the award, which they base on multiple factors. It's not my style of car personally, but looks like decent automobile none the less.

[HoustonEaDo]

Originally Posted by Gastoys

Of course, Obama motors wins again.

You do know Bush was the one that did the buyout don't you?