[Car-Addicted]

Maybe BMW is right and I'm wrong?

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

How much of this is nostalgia, or do we have hard facts on performance metrics?

Of course we have hard facts on performance metrics. Everywhere. The newer cars are objectively better and put up higher numbers.

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

The G8x may not feel nimble and analog, and not as fun

Exactly.

These 2 things need not be mutually exclusive. BMW chose the latter, they weren't forced into it. And even if it's a great decision for most of the cars (I can even agree it is, and already have, and yeah they still make some good cars of course, need to appeal to the majority, need to make money, blah blah everyone understands), some of us would like at least one of their cars to have some of those ingredients we've come to love over the years.

I don't mean to single you out by the way and I bet we mostly agree on things.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Hassan1490

BMW is currently the most profitable company in the auto industry.
I guess everything they are doing is in the right direction.
Boomers tears won't change this fact!

https://companiesmarketcap.com/autom...le-automakers/

What are boomer tears?? Seems like a narcissistic pay attention to me meaningless post. Do BMW enthusiasts care what car co. makes the most profit??

I certainly didn't want a chevy when GM was the most profitable company. I didn't want a rental car Toyota when Toyota was the most profitable company.

Why would any enthusiast buy a BMW because it's the most profitable company?? I doubt anyone here would buy a mypillow because it's the most profitable pillow or has the most infomercials. I run fast away from companies that saturate TV time with commercials.

Idiots buy based on TV ads. Enthusiasts buy based on experience proven performance.

[ASAP]

Having owned an M2C and an F80... and driving both on a track, then later driving a G80x... I think it's obvious that the general M market / car strategy has changed overall.

BMW tried to create a car for everyone that can be driven in all conditions... and as a result of that, it does that. This comes at the expense of feeling, weight and IMHO fun.

The G80x was far number, heavier and just less exciting than any version of an F80 I've ever driven. The G80x is by far the most capable M3 but because it's limits are so high, they cannot be reached on a street (which is where an m3 is primarily driven)... as a result of that, you're left with a car that feels more like a luxy heavy sporty GT than the M car I'm used to. The gearbox swap away from DCT just re confirms that. Has it worked out for BMW? Sure, sales have skyrocketed... but by far and large, it would no longer be my choice for a fun car... as it feels too safe and insulated on the street.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by ASAP

BMW tried to create a car for everyone that can be driven in all conditions... and as a result of that, it does that. This comes at the expense of feeling, weight and IMHO fun.

Same thing was said when the E9X M generation launched coming from the E46 M3.

And we know this was the thought when the E30 M purists sampled the E46 M3.

And of course, this was said again when we went from the NA V8 M3 to the larger turbocharged Inline-6 in the F8X M series.

Same story, every time. Nothing has changed.

So, just buy the previous generation that fits your preference. Problem solved.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I can't speak for anyone else but it'd be nice to have one car available that kept that interactive / tactile feeling. Clearly at least some people want it.

It could be a version of the M2 perhaps. Take out some fluff, stiffen up every bushing (suspension, shifter, etc.), tune the EPS to actually transmit something to the steering wheel. A version that was more 1M than M4.

I've often thought of the stripped out concept. I'm sure BMW will have looked at this idea. I do wonder what the marketing case would be, whether it would be worthwhile for BMW. Safety standards would still have to be met for type approval.

We really need something smaller than the 2-series, as the 2-series is almost as big/long as the original two generations of the 5-series. Plus a lot of weight to lose retaining the present drivetrain. Back to a 4-cylinder M-engine? Can easily see the cost to get the real gains some are after, being prohibitive.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Same thing was said when the E9X M generation launched coming from the E46 M3.

And you know this was the thought when the E30 M purists sampled the E46 M3.

And of course, this was said again when we went from the NA V8 M3 to the larger, heavier turbocharged Inline 6 in the F8X M series.

Same story, every time. Nothing has changed.

So, just buy the previous generation that fits your preference. Problem solved.

I am not 100% sure what the point of this comment is... if one prefers the G80... no problem... buy that.

To me, the difference became clear and it's no longer a car for me lol... that is my subjective opinion.

Objectively - it is by far the heaviest M3, it is also the largest... it is also the most insulated in terms of noise etc... this is not an opinion lol... there are numbers to back that up. Maybe you are not aware but the F80 was lighter than the E92 and introduced a solid rear subframe to the car post E92... the G80 did the reverse by becoming heavier and re introing an auto box which is shared with the non m models. This is not an opinion lol or what someone said.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

As a daily driver you still can buy a BMW. Weight and size is no issue.

But for us driver enthusiasts BMW M has nothing to offer anymore. If you make a promotion movie on track with a 1700kg car you have made somewhere a wrong turn!

I would say some of the most recent promotions where even better-

Like doing a movie with an F80 w the E92 V8 howling over it...

Or doing an Instagram post of an M2 CS... w... an Audi R8 V10 screaming over it

The amount of LOL that came from those 2 things for folks that knew what was going on was beyond expression... for others that couldn't tell the difference... BMW immediately knew their new target market.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Exactly.

These 2 things need not be mutually exclusive. BMW chose the latter, they weren't forced into it. And even if it's a great decision for most of the cars (I can even agree it is, and already have, and yeah they still make some good cars of course, need to appeal to the majority, need to make money, blah blah everyone understands), some of us would like at least one of their cars to have some of those ingredients we've come to love over the years.

I don't mean to single you out by the way and I bet we mostly agree on things.

Yeah I’ve had the last 4 gens, and the g80cx was unbelievably fast but fell flat for me. Not what I want from an M3, personally.

[10"]

Originally Posted by Hassan1490

BMW is currently the most profitable company in the auto industry.
I guess everything they are doing is in the right direction.
Boomers tears won't change this fact!

https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/most-profitable-automakers/

Who cares? I am not here to cheer on their profits I’m here to drive good cars. LOL.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I am not 100% sure what the point of this comment is... if one prefers the G80... no problem... buy that.

To me, the difference became clear and it's no longer a car for me lol... that is my subjective opinion.

Objectively - it is by far the heaviest M3, it is also the largest... it is also the most insulated in terms of noise etc... this is not an opinion lol... there are numbers to back that up. Maybe you are not aware but the F80 was lighter than the E92 and introduced a solid rear subframe to the car post E92... the G80 did the reverse by becoming heavier and re introing an auto box which is shared with the non m models. This is not an opinion lol or what someone said.

Point taken. From the E9X to the F80, the F80 was a bit lighter, and it maintained the DCT.

Yes, the G8X M experience is a far different experience than the F8X M experience.

And that's the point...the E9X experience was far different than the F8X experience. And E9X purists complained, moaned and many held onto their E9Xs. Same for the E3X M purists, many didn't jump to the E46 M3, because it grew in size and became less focused.

So, from generation to generation, no M car was similar to the previous one. Each one offers a completely different experience.

Thus, we should always expect BMW to "break the mold" with something different in each generation, because they always have for the M3 series.

The G8X is no different. And BMW knew that many purists would complain, because we always have, every time a new one is launched.

So, with like 7 generations of M, we can each choose the generation we prefer based on what we like. I love my E93 V8, never selling it. Didn't love my F80, though it looked awesome. And I have real appreciation for my G82, as a super fast Grand Tourer, that also can boogie in the twisties when pressed. Visceral enough for me, just barely comfortable enough, but it's BIG, and heavy...no denying that.

My E9X is a far different experience.

I can appreciate both, each has its merits...and demerits.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Point taken. From the E9X to the F80, the F80 was a bit lighter, and it maintained the DCT.

Yes, the G8X M experience is a far different experience than the F8X M experience.

And that's the point...the E9X experience was far different than the F8X experience. And E9X purists complained, moaned and many held onto their E9Xs. Same for the E3X M purists, many didn't jump to the E46 M3, because it grew in size and became less focused.

So, from generation to generation, no M car was similar to the previous one. Each one offers a completely different experience.

Thus, we should always expect BMW to "break the mold" with something different in each generation, because they always have for the M3 series.

The G8X is no different. And BMW knew that many purists would complain, because we always have, every time a new one is launched.

So, with like 7 generations of M, we can each choose the generation we prefer based on what we like. I love my E93 V8, never selling it. Didn't love my F80, though it looked awesome. And I have real appreciation for my G82, as a super fast Grand Tourer, that also can boogie in the twisties when pressed. Visceral enough for me, just barely comfortable enough, but it's BIG, and heavy...no denying that.

My E9X is a far different experience.

I can appreciate both, each has its merits...and demerits.

I can understand all of this and do appreciate the merits...

I think the G80 is by far the most capable and I know I would be able to go faster on a track even without trying than an F80... but see here is the key... "without trying"... and as a result of that it loses a ton of excitement for me... especially on the street where I can't even come close to those limits. i can't pay $90K for a car that doesn't excite me every single day... weight, a torque curve that is very high up and number steering, just won't do that for me...

As far as prior gens... I loved the E92 M3 looks and the sound and character of the engine... I think they are arguably timeless... I don't like the rest of the car lol... but again, that is subjective to everyone... to me it doesn't have enough torque down low to move down the street and the car also just feels heavy to me.... I think the F80 somehow met a middle balance very very well... one that we won't see again.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Having owned an M2C and an F80... and driving both on a track, then later driving a G80x... I think it's obvious that the general M market / car strategy has changed overall.

BMW tried to create a car for everyone that can be driven in all conditions... and as a result of that, it does that. This comes at the expense of feeling, weight and IMHO fun.

The G80x was far number, heavier and just less exciting than any version of an F80 I've ever driven. The G80x is by far the most capable M3 but because it's limits are so high, they cannot be reached on a street (which is where an m3 is primarily driven)... as a result of that, you're left with a car that feels more like a luxy heavy sporty GT than the M car I'm used to. The gearbox swap away from DCT just re confirms that. Has it worked out for BMW? Sure, sales have skyrocketed... but by far and large, it would no longer be my choice for a fun car... as it feels too safe and insulated on the street.

Exactly my thoughts. My opinion is that F90 M5 I own is very fast luxurious sedan. It’s stupid fast for the roads. However cars in general became artificial if you know what I mean. Steering is quick but you hardly have an idea how much of a “load” you put on front tires. Anyone that driven car with good steering knows what I mean. If not for efficiency and all the driver Nannie’s electric steering would never exist. Profitability argument is laughable. What does it have to do with better product for me I have no idea. Bmw could’ve had great fun car in the form of Z4 but with every new body style it became bigger and heavier. Maybe more comfortable and roomy ? Yes. But what for ? There are at least 10 other offerings within the brand that offer that. What I would like to see if fun light 300-400hp car with good steering good sound 1300-1400 kg range two door coupe with decent looks ( I don’t expect good looks judging by latest BMW’s offerings but majority disagree Latest M2 had a chance to be like that. But 1700kg weight and and looks as if it was made out of Lego’s took that chance away. The moment you realize that the brand exists to make shareholders happy rather than it’s customers you loose faith that it’ll happen as much as I like Porsche I don’t see it as an alternative. First is pricing. But even if you get over it there are market adjustments. And even if you get over that there’s another one. Availability. That is because if you look at it lack of competition that Bmw chooses not to be They would rather make another SUV FUV whatever The F UV you want to call it. Bmw where the F is your sports car ???

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I can understand all of this and do appreciate the merits...

I think the G80 is by far the most capable and I know I would be able to go faster on a track even without trying than an F80... but see here is the key... "without trying"... and as a result of that it loses a ton of excitement for me... especially on the street where I can't even come close to those limits. i can't pay $90K for a car that doesn't excite me every single day... weight, a torque curve that is very high up and number steering, just won't do that for me...

As far as prior gens... I loved the E92 M3 looks and the sound and character of the engine... I think they are arguably timeless... I don't like the rest of the car lol... but again, that is subjective to everyone... to me it doesn't have enough torque down low to move down the street and the car also just feels heavy to me.... I think the F80 somehow met a middle balance very very well... one that we won't see again.

The F80 was a good balance, indeed. And I think the F80 CS was a really good car. And F8Xs still look great.

And the F8X is the sweet spot for you, which is perfect. Keep it. Hec, by another, because they're not going to make another one like that again.

I have a RWD G82, and I have tracked it. It's not so easy to drive fast, on the track nor on the road, especially with the traction control off. You better know what you're doing, because it will slide easily. No AWD system to save you if you're really pushing it.

But I agree, the G8X is just a bit too big and heavy to have maximum fun on the track, and sometimes even on the road. The F8X definitely feels more lithe. So I get it, and if I would have liked the sound of my F82 more, I may have kept it. But even with a full aftermarket exhaust, I couldn't get past it.

And yes, certainly the AWD G82 is the most capable chassis ever put into an M3. Same for the M5 AWD chassis. But they're both big, heavy and a bit numb...unless you're willing to stretch and get the M5 CS or the M4 CSL (but they both still can't hide their size and girth).

Everything is a compromise. I want a GT3 (and it's the only 911 I want), but it's not a better daily car than my G82. It's a specialty, weekend car. Different usage case.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

So, just buy the previous generation that fits your preference. Problem solved.

Except there's a crap ton of benefits to having a newer and more modern car, and a lot of improvements along the way. Your comment, seen many times from others, makes it seem like people want BMW to be stuck in the 80's, or 90's, or wherever and never change. That's not the case. We'd very much like the new car, and most of what comes with it, just NOT with the numbness, the feedback and engagement that has been intentionally dialed out. So, no, buying an old car isn't really all great and wonderful either.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ASAP

... but see here is the key... "without trying"... and as a result of that it loses a ton of excitement for me... especially on the street where I can't even come close to those limits...

Isn't this really where so many of us find a problem, same in most user segments, not just M-cars.

Driving where you had to virtually 'wring out' the motor, pushing close to the limits in normal day to day driving, brought so much more satisfaction.

The crazy, "chasing headline figures" is part of the problem. Results in having highly capable vehicles at the limits, but means we almost certainly lose the "involvement" part where most are driving daily.

My memories of many UK vehicles in the 1970 and 80's. We had to work our vehicles, no choice, and being much more basic, no HPAS, no ABS, servo brakes if you were lucky, (or upgraded). So much fun and genuine satisfaction, even if the 0 - 60 was over 10 seconds.

[Hassan1490]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

What are boomer tears?? Seems like a narcissistic pay attention to me meaningless post. Do BMW enthusiasts care what car co. makes the most profit??

I certainly didn't want a chevy when GM was the most profitable company. I didn't want a rental car Toyota when Toyota was the most profitable company.

Why would any enthusiast buy a BMW because it's the most profitable company?? I doubt anyone here would buy a mypillow because it's the most profitable pillow or has the most infomercials. I run fast away from companies that saturate TV time with commercials.

Idiots buy based on TV ads. Enthusiasts buy based on experience proven performance.

I'm taking about the people who absurdly claim that the brand has lost its way or the company will be dead soon.
I currently have two modern M cars and found them way better compared to any older M car. The best driving dynamics in the auto industry.

BMW is still a true car enthusiast, but not the aging enthusiast, probably!

Boomers want BMW to stay outdated and crappy like in 1990. Well, you can get an Alfa Romeo, which it tried its best to have light, RWD, and a driver car, but guess what!
It sold only 5000 units per year.
On the other hand, BMW could sell more X5 in one week.

BMW is not a charity. They have commitments to their shareholders, and the company must stay profitable by adapting to the newer world changes.
If BMW listened to those boomers, it would have be the second Nokia today.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

The moment you realize that the brand exists to make shareholders happy rather than it’s customers you loose faith...

Shareholders are only served and happy if the company makes stuff the customers buy.

BMW seem to be judging that correctly, at the moment. BMW's wider customer base must be happy with the product, or BMW wouldn't be seeing the results they are.

We may not be happy ourselves, not liking the way BMW are taking the brand. Even the M-cars are now part of "lifestyle" marketing.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Hassan1490

Boomers want BMW to stay outdated and crappy like in 1990.

Nice straw man. Hard to tell if you're serious or just trolling.

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

What I would like to see if fun light 300-400hp car with good steering good sound 1300-1400 kg range two door coupe with decent looks ( I don’t expect good looks judging by latest BMW’s offerings but majority disagree

Mini Cooper JCW GP exists unfortunately

I agree they need to backfill the lineup once cars reach a certain point. The FWD based 2 series is not exactly what we had in mind.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Mini Cooper JCW GP exists unfortunately

Too bad it is a hatchback Not a coupe. And exactly why unfortunately I’d take it over new M2 each time every time. Unfortunately. Although it still isn’t a proper sports car.

[freakystyly]

Price point, availability and competition from other brands pushed it out of being a talking point for many.