[BenchRacerYo]

Originally Posted by fl335i

The new Camaro is good looking, and runs like a raped ape. However, my gripes with it are: small windows/visibility sucks. It's too large. As in the size of a damn house. They weight 9,000 #. Aside from that, I'm OK with them. But regardless, in 10yrs, they will all be outside on blocks, rear jacked up, out front in trailer parks. They are Willard mobiles. The BMW's have a more normal, civilized, 4 door side that still get good MPG's. I guess the BMW is just the more grownup choice. 4 door M5, 4 door M3 or even a E90 335i tuned up. 4 doors, practical, good visibility and not the size of a house. Has anyone seen a 5'-0" women sitting in a Camaro? They can't even see over the wheel. My aunt who retired from GM tried to buy a V6 Conv. Bought a Nissan Z car b/c she should actually see out of it and drive it. Nothing new with GM.... they don't look at the whole picture. and I'm sure the interior will be junk in 5yrs. Every GM car I've seen turns out that way. Sagging headliners, door panels falling apart, cracked dashes etc. GM makes Camaros, full size trucks and SUV's, for the dumbed down American market.

GM also makes the Corvette. You conveniently forgot to mention that.

[CirrusSR22]

He also forgot to mention the excellent GM cars that directly compete with those 4-door BMWs. The ATS and CTS.

[CirrusSR22]

And the heaviest Camaro is still lighter than a 650i or E550 Coupe. Shorter than the 650i too. So it's basically just as large and heavy as every other large coupe out there.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by P1et

Since when is a 335i a base model 3-series? That would be a 316i.

he says himself that he has a base model 335i......

and since he's such a grown-up, he bought it used....

...............and all basey.....

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

He also forgot to mention the excellent GM cars that directly compete with those 4-door BMWs. The ATS and CTS.

You mean the ones with sales down 25% this year? Yes, excellent.

[BenchRacerYo]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

And the heaviest Camaro is still lighter than a 650i or E550 Coupe. Shorter than the 650i too. So it's basically just as large and heavy as every other large coupe out there.

Fuck the weight, the ZL1 destroys both the E550 coupe and the 650i.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

You mean the ones with sales down 25% this year? Yes, excellent.

Who cares how many they sell? CTS is Motor Trend Car of the Year and Car and Driver Top 10. And more importantly, they both are more fun to drive than any of their German competitors.

And if I did care about sales numbers (which I don't) take a look the MINI, 1 Series and 5-Series. All great cars, but their sales are WAY down.

911 Sales are down. GT-R sales are down. SLS AMG sales are down. Boxster sales are down. GTI sales are down. That makes them bad cars? Doesn't make any sense.

[P1]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

Who cares how many they sell? CTS is Motor Trend Car of the Year and Car and Driver Top 10. And more importantly, they both are more fun to drive than any of their German competitors.

And if I did care about sales numbers (which I don't) take a look the MINI, 1 Series and 5-Series. All great cars, but their sales are WAY down.

911 Sales are down. GT-R sales are down. SLS AMG sales are down. Boxster sales are down. GTI sales are down. That makes them bad cars? Doesn't make any sense.

Would you buy a car based on Motor Trend's "Car of the Year" award? Oh goodness, that is one laughable statement. Might as well buy a car based on what an Archie character recommends.

Just look at the list with me:

2014 Cadillac CTS
2013 Tesla Model S
2012 Volkswagen Passat
2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Ford Fusion
2009 Nissan GT-R
2008 Cadillac CTS
2007 Toyota Camry
2006 Honda Civic
2005 Chrysler 300
2004 Toyota Prius
2003 Infiniti G35
2002 Ford Thunderbird
2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
2000 Lincoln LS

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by P1et

Would you buy a car based on Motor Trend's "Car of the Year" award?

Not soley. Never suggested that. Every review of the ATS and especially the new CTS raves about how great they are to drive.

And that list.
CTS, GT-R, Tesla. All excellent.
Volt and Prius. Both changed the car industry.

The G35 won because that was the first car to start winning comparisons to the 3-Series.

I don't know about the PT Cruiser though...

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

Who cares how many they sell? CTS is Motor Trend Car of the Year and Car and Driver Top 10. And more importantly, they both are more fun to drive than any of their German competitors.

And if I did care about sales numbers (which I don't) take a look the MINI, 1 Series and 5-Series. All great cars, but their sales are WAY down.

911 Sales are down. GT-R sales are down. SLS AMG sales are down. Boxster sales are down. GTI sales are down. That makes them bad cars? Doesn't make any sense.

Not sure where you're getting your info, but Porsche sales are not down. In fact they 2013 was their best sales year in NA, EVER. 21% increase over 2012. BMW & MINI combined sales were up nearly 11% in 2013 compared with 2012. You are correct about MINIs being down, but the Roadmaster and Countryman are up enough to give the MINI brand a small jump in sales of nearly 2%. BMW 3, 5, 6, and 7 series are all up. And by the way, according to Cadillac, sales were up 22% in 2013. While sales figures are just one component, i believe they are relevant. Like the 3 series, many of the Cadillac vehicles were perceived to be a good cars and were priced well enough to perceived as a good value as well.

However, I bolded some stuff from Car & Driver comparison below that may lead some people to believe the GM cars aren't quite there.

Cadillac’s most recent attempt at 3-series emulation was the CTS, an ambitious tweener that hoped to steal sales from BMW’s 3- and 5-series with a single blow. This time around, the company started where identity thieves usually do: the target’s garbage. Engineers say the E90’s predecessor, the E46, was their dynamic benchmark, and the critical dimensions of the ATS are right on top of the E90’s. It’s easy to spot the similarities in the suspension setup, too. Just like the BMW, the ATS tested here is powered by a turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder. Caddy’s engine tops the BMW mill by 32 horsepower and five pound-feet of torque, for totals of 272 and 260, respectively. Its 3477-pound curb weight and 50/50 front/rear weight distribution parrot figures familiar to drivers who have sworn *allegiance to the blue-and-white propeller. Its $34,615 base price is nearly three grand less than the BMW’s, but stuffed with Cadillac’s CUE infotainment system, an adjustable sport suspension, and a trunkload of other options, the example here landed at $45,910. These two are fairly evenly matched, but as all those aspirational appliance hoarders will tell you, there’s no room for error in identity theft.

Please take a moment now to glance at the final results. Note that Cadillac beat BMW at its own game—actually, “clobbered” is a better word to sum up the chassis scoring. The only test the ATS didn’t ace is the comfort-oriented “ride” cat*egory. Otherwise, it’s as sound a drubbing as is possible. But while the Cadillac does the most important thing better than the BMW, that’s the only thing it does better. The 3-series, on the other hand, is consistently excellent.

With less power and nearly as much weight, the BMW trounces the Caddy in a straight line. That’s thanks to the BMW’s seamless power delivery. As opposed to the ATS’s brief lag, then rush of acceleration followed by a dramatic taper, the BMW’s 2.0-liter offers one long uninterrupted flow from the torque peak at 1250 rpm to redline. The fuel cutoff is past seven grand, and the engine sounds and feels like it’s aiming for nine. Plus, BMW still does manual transmissions better than almost anyone. While the clutch is a touch light, the shifter is smooth and direct, with none of the stubbornness of the Cadillac unit.


The 328i’s interior is elegantly simple compared with the more ambitious ATS.
We also preferred the 328i’s seating position to the ATS’s, and the greater reach of the 328i’s telescoping wheel helped everyone get comfortable. And while BMW’s interior looks plain compared with Cadillac’s, it enjoys a consistency that escapes its opponent. All the materials feel the same and have the same graining, whereas the ATS driver is overwhelmed by different materials, textures, finishes, and even stitching. Cadillac’s designers were more ambitious than BMW’s, but those ambitions should have been tempered somewhat.

I really don't get it when someone trashes someone else's choice in vehicle. I know people who are totally in LOVE with their Mustang, MDX, 370z, etc... It's their car and they love it and that's all that matters. Those are all vehicles i'd rather not drive on a daily basis, but that doesn't diminish the value that car holds for it's owner. And it's not my place to try and "educate" them on how poor their car may perform, feel, look, accelerate, etc...

I learned that lesson along time ago when i dated a girl with a 90's Camaro. She loved the car and i just kept my mouth shut as i drove an E36 M3. She finally asked me why i didn't like her car and made me show her why. So i went though point by point and before i could get done with 1/2 of the car she was crying her eyes out. So, i don't talk shit about anyone's car anymore. If it does it for you, that's all that mattes.

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

So i went though point by point and before i could get done with 1/2 of the car she was crying her eyes out.

Not a keeper.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Not sure where you're getting your info, but Porsche sales are not down. In fact they 2013 was their best sales year in NA, EVER.

I very specifically mentioned the 911 and Boxster models, not overall Porsche sales. They are both excellent cars. Cayenne, Panamera and Cayman sales are up bringing the brand's overall sales up.

Here's my data.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/04...4-ytd.html?m=0

And I highly doubt I've ever trashed ANY car in the internet. My stance is almost always defending good cars from badge whores. I've never liked GM in past, but I give credit where it's due. The C7, ATS, CTS, and later Camaros are legit good cars. I'd happily drive most any car made today.

And that 3-Series vs. ATS article. I could bold just as many points where they say the ATS handles better, brakes better and has better steering feel. And that's not to rip the BMW (I'm on my 5th now), it's to counter the people that blindly think BMW is the be-all end-all.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Not a keeper.

No doubt!

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

I very specifically mentioned the 911 and Boxster models, not overall Porsche sales. They are both excellent cars. Cayenne, Panamera and Cayman sales are up bringing the brand's overall sales up.

Here's my data.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/04...4-ytd.html?m=0

And I highly doubt I've ever trashed ANY car in the internet. My stance is almost always defending good cars from badge whores. I've never liked GM in past, but I give credit where it's due. The C7, ATS, CTS, and later Camaros are legit good cars. I'd happily drive most any car made today.

And that 3-Series vs. ATS article. I could bold just as many points where they say the ATS handles better, brakes better and has better steering feel. And that's not to rip the BMW (I'm on my 5th now), it's to counter the people that blindly think BMW is the be-all end-all.

My apologies, i didn't mean to infer that you were trashing anyone's choice in vehicle. That was a you, "in general" statement.

My bolding of the articles statements was a possible explanation as to why some people won't look to GM cars as an alternative to a 3 series. Mainly the part about how GM is emulating, knocking off the 3 series essentially.

Clearly GM is making good vehicles, their sales being up in 2013 is additional proof. But they are still a little ways off to a complete package. At least according to consumers and Car & Driver.

From Porsche NA:

[CirrusSR22]

Oh yeah, GM certainly isn't perfect. 10 years ago they were a joke. 5 years ago there was a little glimmer of hope. Now they have a number of good, competitive cars. I hope the trend continues.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by P1et

Would you buy a car based on Motor Trend's "Car of the Year" award? Oh goodness, that is one laughable statement. Might as well buy a car based on what an Archie character recommends.

Just look at the list with me:

2014 Cadillac CTS
2013 Tesla Model S
2012 Volkswagen Passat
2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Ford Fusion
2009 Nissan GT-R
2008 Cadillac CTS
2007 Toyota Camry
2006 Honda Civic
2005 Chrysler 300
2004 Toyota Prius
2003 Infiniti G35
2002 Ford Thunderbird
2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
2000 Lincoln LS

Editor must have been drunk or high that year...