[Th3DarkSide]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You do realize humans are running the government, right? Interesting dichotomy you state.


Well, I could address each of these items, but I’m not going to waste my time, because it wouldn’t make any difference to you or to me. We obviously view the world in polar opposite ways and neither of us is going to change our minds. I’ll just say this. My view on the majority of the things you mentioned is very different than you think it is.

All I have to say is WOW. I shouldn’t be surprised in this day and age someone thinks like he does but I am. Sad really.

[Tallest]

I like how this EV 3 series looks.

But this commitment to EVs means hey, cars finally will be depreciating massively again, so used bargains end of 2020s here we go!

And looks like a nice political move so that green party pats them on their head.
I hope their battery tech becomes something thats not relying on slave labour and is recyclable. Which is neither today...

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by logicators

Flawed analogy. Cars represented a paradigm shift in transportation and made things possible that were unthinkable in the past (like the great American coast to coast road trip). EVs are just another way to power cars. They don’t make transportation more convinient, or cheap, not for now anyway. They actually require a compromise. You need to plan your trips around the available infrastructure. They will see mass adoption when 1) charging stations are as common as gas stations, 2) charging times are comparable to or better than filling gas in a car and 3) their acquisition and maintenance costs, and resale prices are comparable to or better than their ICE counterparts.

But, But, But we are stupid and stuck with our horse drawn CARRAIAGE.

Perhaps these people do not know the first electric car appeared in 1884 before the ICE was invented by Mercedes in 1885. It was the electric vehicle that went the way of the dinosaur in favor of the ICE.

No matter what the source of power the power has to be generated somehow, and almost all those somehows damage the environment. Until we start building safe, reliable nuclear power plants the issue will not begin to be resolved.

And then India and China can go from creating 90% of the worlds pollution to 99%. In the world of protecting the environment, what the US does is simply irrelevant.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by GinTonic

When the government tells you they care about your well being, you better run the other way. My parents fled Poland in the late 80s for a reason. All I see is Americans put too much trust in theirs.

I'm sure I would have great respect for your parents. As I'm sure you well know there were many just like him/her in the late 1930's in Poland, The Netherlands, Belgium that believed the Goebbels propaganda machine, "the Nazis' just want to be our friends". The just got shot in the head, that's all.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

But this change needs to be imposed by the government.
Educating you is much harder than putting out some new regulations. Also, government needs to protect me and my son and future generations from catastrophe. That's why the government exists.

Humans aren't that smart. When government doesn't force people to put on seatbelts, they don't wear them and die in the first 20mph accident they get into. When it doesn't force people to stop buying guns, they do and kill random people. When it doesn't force them to dump all their chemical waste into rivers, they do and kill animals and poison people. When it doesn't force them to stop smoking, they do and kill themselves. You got the idea. Or maybe not. Probably not - and that's why you need to be forced.
That's why we humans choose a government and give them the right to regulate. That's called the Social Contract.

EVs won't solve climate change by themselves. But it's a part of it. If you're obese, you wouldn't say "I can eat this large pizza by myself. Not eating this won't put me in shape anyway, so f/ck it".

I can't imagine what it must be like to be you. Full of hatred and prejudices. You probably know less than 1% about the people you are stereotyping, not really surprising. I read a forum every day full of people like you that think they're smarter than everyone else. Pure narcissism.

No one ever had to force me to use a seatbelt, and I read multiple news articles from just about every viewpoint you could imagine every day. I watch congressional testimony and see things less than 1% of our population ever sees. But most important, I dig in and get the real facts. No, I don't watch the main network news from either side of the political spectrum.

[secretariat]

Originally Posted by sammyj

The EPA is heavily restricting the sale of ICEs past 2032, and CA is banning the sale of a new ICE outright in 2035. Current demand is almost irrelevant at this point, given the influence that the US and Cali markets have overall on vehicle specifications.

We can expect to see a rapid maturing of this market in the next few years, with regards to battery efficiency/ range, charging infrastructure, and something that isn’t talked about much - used EV sales. That last bit - we still have a long way to go in terms of battery recycling, battery health verification (buying a used EV, a buyer would rightfully want to know the condition of the battery), and battery refurbishment/replacement.

I think we will also see an embrace from performance oriented carmakers, and some interesting innovations in “performance dynamics” for EVs.

2 Different Countries I guess??

[Calamari]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

You're commenting under the news that it's already happening, and decided. BMW's factory is being re-built so that they will only build EVs. Same with VW, Mercedes Benz, and all others. All the EU countries and U.S. put in place deadlines for ICE sales. And especially in Northern Europe, EV sales are already approaching 50% of new car sales.
And you still call it a fantasy. So you believe, they will all need to go back to build ICE engines huh? I wonder who's in the fantasyland

I live in Europe. Basically everything you wrote in this post is factually incorrect.

Demand for new EVs in EU is very low compared to ICEs and PHEVs. The period of rising EV sales is behind us. In fact, there was a huge drop of BEV sales in summer of 2023 when Germany stopped issuing subsidies for purchase of new BEVs. BMW is comitted to development of all powertrain options in the foreseeable future: ICE, PHEV and BEV. Majority of all BMW models are and will be built on modular platforms that support all 3 powertrains in the same chasis.
VW has actually stopped investments in BEV factories. They recently fired around 600 employees in the BEV factory cause there is not enough demand for their EV cars. They even stopped EV production for a few weeks for the same reason. VW recently fired it's CEO that invested billions in the massive EV-shift. The new CEO is basically brought to drop all of that, and is now pivoting back to ICEs and PHEVs and is trying to save what is savable. Toyota, Mazda, Ford, GM are all saying out loud that EVs are not for all people and all applications. They work great for some people, but are not working for the majority of world population.

Majority of European Car producers are now focused on hybrids for the near future. Major infrastructure upgrades and new Electric Power Plants are nowhere in sight. In fact, Germany, as a largest european economy and industrial powerhouse has been importing electric energy for the last year and a half despite going through a recession.

And please, don't fantasize about imminent revolutionary progress in battery technology or day-dream about exponential improvements of the charging infrastructure. I'm an electrical engineer, and can tell you that all of that is utter bullshit.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

But this change needs to be imposed by the government.
Educating you is much harder than putting out some new regulations. Also, government needs to protect me and my son and future generations from catastrophe. That's why the government exists.

Humans aren't that smart. When government doesn't force people to put on seatbelts, they don't wear them and die in the first 20mph accident they get into. When it doesn't force people to stop buying guns, they do and kill random people. When it doesn't force them to dump all their chemical waste into rivers, they do and kill animals and poison people. When it doesn't force them to stop smoking, they do and kill themselves. You got the idea. Or maybe not. Probably not - and that's why you need to be forced.
That's why we humans choose a government and give them the right to regulate. That's called the Social Contract.

EVs won't solve climate change by themselves. But it's a part of it. If you're obese, you wouldn't say "I can eat this large pizza by myself. Not eating this won't put me in shape anyway, so f/ck it".

i mean by your logic we should start banning pizza right. I'm just to god damn stupid to stop eating pizza and big macs. ohhh yeahhh Pizza

[Th3DarkSide]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

i mean by your logic we should start banning pizza right. I'm just to god damn stupid to stop eating pizza and big macs. ohhh yeahhh Pizza

Pizza is bad for your heart health after all. I think Big Government should get in involved and put a stop to it. They know best. Haha. I’m amazed daily at the Idiocy.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

i mean by your logic we should start banning pizza right. I'm just to god damn stupid to stop eating pizza and big macs. ohhh yeahhh Pizza

How old are you? Are you illeterate?

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

I can't imagine what it must be like to be you. Full of hatred and prejudices. You probably know less than 1% about the people you are stereotyping, not really surprising. I read a forum every day full of people like you that think they're smarter than everyone else. Pure narcissism.

What am I stereotyping? I'm not talking about a particular group of people, this is a global thing. I don't understand your point here, so if seatbelts aren't forced by law, don't you think it would make as giant uptick in fatalities?

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Th3DarkSide

All I have to say is WOW. I shouldn’t be surprised in this day and age someone thinks like he does but I am. Sad really.

I'm sorry you exist.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by GinTonic

When the government tells you they care about your well being, you better run the other way. My parents fled Poland in the late 80s for a reason. All I see is Americans put too much trust in theirs.

This has nothing to do with trust.
It's a law in effect. Some said where will we charge the cars, and this is the response. No need to insert your political BS in everything.
Also there are places with no government authority in the world, you should move.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

You do realize humans are running the government, right? Interesting dichotomy you state.
.

It's not an interesting dichotomy at all.
Humans give the authority to a governemnt to regulate and protect themselves. I mean you really don't understand this? People really went crazy in this day and age.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

How old are you? Are you illeterate?

Also spelled “illiterate”. I’m not sure. Maybe you did that on purpose.

Originally Posted by Krids1229

I will agree that we all need to abide by the Social Contract. Unfortunately, this appears to have weakened greatly over the last 25-30 years. If we can't figure out mutual benefit and service to others, a higher form of altruism, I fear many other things will also unravel as well.

We humans appear to be overly self-destructive and outwardly aggressive - our government should be expected to be a form of and push for a more idealized version of our society. And whether you like it or not, regulation and laws reflect that idealized state.

Or at least should.

And I think that's the rub.

BEVs pollute less and are more energy efficient? I'm pretty sure the science shows that.

Oil and petroleum products have caused mass pollution for decades? Again, science is on our side on that one (and no, carbon dioxide IS NOT harmless)

The economics of propping up the oil and gas industry? Capitalism argues that a profitable industry likely doesn't need trillions of dollars from the government and our taxes.

I get it - the devil is in the details, and we can argue when and how quickly to implement a change over.

But damn it, why does it feel like people are trying to run out the clock on this one? To some, its running out the clock on who is in charge of the government. But to some like us, its literally running the clock out on humanity.

And that pisses me off.

Just so some greasy businessmen can milk out a few more bucks, or some disingenuous politician can pocket a few bills.

Maybe we need to look a bit beyond ourself, and think of others for once.

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Thank you for making sense while disagreeing unlike others.

umm…if you take a minute to process what he wrote, and maybe look at his other posts yesterday, you might see he’s not disagreeing. He’s actually agreeing with you.

[iklo2]

That was before Hertz dumped it's EV fleet.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Th3DarkSide

All I have to say is WOW. I shouldn’t be surprised in this day and age someone thinks like he does but I am. Sad really.

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

I'm sorry you exist.

Originally Posted by GinTonic

When the government tells you they care about your well being, you better run the other way. My parents fled Poland in the late 80s for a reason. All I see is Americans put too much trust in theirs.

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

This has nothing to do with trust.
It's a law in effect. Some said where will we charge the cars, and this is the response. No need to insert your political BS in everything.
Also there are places with no government authority in the world, you should move.

Wow! You really are an angry person.

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Humans aren't that smart.…

That's why we humans choose a government and give them the right to regulate. That's called the Social Contract.

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

It's not an interesting dichotomy at all.
Humans give the authority to a governemnt to regulate and protect themselves. I mean you really don't understand this? People really went crazy in this day and age.

And truly not very bright.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

How old are you? Are you illeterate?

come on man, if you gunna call someone out for being illiterate as least spell it right

i am 31.

thanks for personally attacking me

you live in a vitreous world.

we look down on smokers and tell them geez put that cig out your killing yourself.

but we can't go to a fat person and say put that ice cream down your killing yourself.

i know this will cause you dissonance it probably already has since you already went to personnel insults like you typically do.

but hey im just too god damn stupid.

"When it doesn't force them to stop smoking, they do and kill themselves. You got the idea. Or maybe not. Probably not - and that's why you need to be forced.
That's why we humans choose a government and give them the right to regulate."

PLEASE government take my pizza away by force.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Another case of people getting their news from political commentators instead of actual sources.
As if nobody ever thought of this huh?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/cleanener...act-guidebook/
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...EVI)%20program.

Of course, if President Biden says it it must be true and be well thought out and make total sense.

Here’s the main part of the infrastructure plan in the link you posted -

“To this end, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law invests $7.5 billion in EV charging, $5 billion of which is for building a “backbone” of high-speed chargers spaced no less than every 50 miles along America’s major roads, freeways, and interstates through the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) program. The remaining $2.5 billion is for competitive grants to states and localities to fill gaps along charging corridors and to provide convenient, accessible charging where people live, work, and shop through the Charging and Fueling Infrastructure (CFI) program.”

Okay, we won’t talk about how wholly inadequate those amounts of money are. $7.5 billion. Really?!?! There is nothing in there that actually addresses how all the street parkers and those without garage parking in cities like yours, Boston, and mine, Chicago, or New York City or Philadelphia or countless others are going to charge their cars the government is going to force them to buy because they have eliminated the option of “fossil” fuels.

So, what are your thoughts on how all those wonderful Bostonians who don’t have a garage to park in or have to park on the street in front of their vintage apartment buildings are going to be charging their cars? Please, do tell.

[Chappers 71]

All BMW are doing is switching ICE production from Munich to Austria, the UK & China, they haven’t announced that they will no longer be producing ICE vehicles at any date in the future, in fact BMW remain committed to ICE.

The Europeans will continue to allow the manufacturing of ICE vehicles past 2035 provided they can run on synthetic/carbon neutral fuels. The internal combustion engine will still be around for a long time.

I don’t have anything against EV’s but they just aren’t for me, & yes I’ve driven a couple, a Tesla & the bosses wife’s Mustang thing & yes they’re quick but I found them soulless & as for a performance EV you’ll always be trading performance for range if you’re doing any kind of distance with it.

This Munich shit is just Clik Bait


Europe steps back from 2035 ICE ban
2023-03-28 BILL VISNIC
A compromise in the EU’s high-stakes EV mandate throws automakers an internal-combustion lifeline.
View gallery »
In a surprising move that paves the way for the European Union’s adoption of a mandate to eliminate vehicle CO2 emissions, on March 25 the EU reached an agreement with Germany to step back from a complete ban of combustion-engine vehicles starting in 2035. The EU agreed to permit sales and registration of internal-combustion engine (ICE) models after the 2035 deadline — provided those vehicles operate only on carbon-neutral fuels, often generically referred to as ‘e-fuels.’

With a significant portion of its economy related to the historically ICE-based automotive industry, Germany had resisted the EU’s total ban of ICE, although its Parliament’s Green Party supported the forced sunsetting of ICE passenger vehicles. Reuters reported German Transport Minister Volker Wissing as tweeting, “We secure opportunities for Europe by preserving important options for climate-neutral and affordable mobility.” In another Twitter post, Wissing reportedly added, “Vehicles with internal combustion engines can still be newly registered after 2035 if they fill up exclusively with CO2-neutral fuels.”

The e-fuels compromise also has implications for the pending Euro 7 vehicle-emissions regulations expected to come into effect by 2025 and that affect both passenger and commercial vehicles. Reuters reported Frans Timmermans, European Commission Vice President in charge of the European Green Deal, as saying that after the deal with Germany was reached, “we will work now on getting the CO2 standards for cars regulation adopted as soon as possible.” Italy and other EU entities also had supported an approach that provided for alternatives to EVs.

Critics of the compromise said the arrangement undermines environmental efforts in general and has potential to harm EU initiatives in other areas. "This rotten compromise undermines climate protection in transport, and it harms Europe," the German news agency dpa reported Greenpeace mobility expert Benjamin Stephan as saying in Berlin on March 25.

Zero-emissions standard remains unchanged
Wire reports said that the deal between the EU and Germany means that the October 2022 agreement of EU member states and the European Parliament that ostensibly mandated EVs will be adopted. German approval of the regulation means that other EU members opposing the ICE ban would not be able to coalesce a sufficient number of votes to veto the legislation. The EU next must create language on the provision for e-fuels in ICE vehicles to satisfy the zero-emissions stipulation.

At present, only a handful of pilot-manufacturing efforts are producing e-fuels, but proponents say that there will be larger-scale production long before the EU’s 2035 requirement for the fuel that will allow ICE vehicles to continue for sale in Europe. It remains to be seen if other entities that have banned or are seeking to ban ICE vehicles — such as several European cities and the state of California — will consider exemptions for e-fueled ICE vehicles.

Germany's automaker association, the VDA, stressed that it supported options for how CO2 neutrality is achieved by passenger vehicles. But the VDA conceded that production of carbon-neutral fuels needs to advance. "Now we have to enable e-fuel output at scale and at competitive prices,” Reuters quoted the VDA as saying, “which can only happen with large range of strategic decisions. Brussels and Berlin need a maximum of stable energy partnerships in the many countries that have excellent conditions to produce e-fuels."

[xmanpro]

Damn this whole thread is triggered! Happy Friday!

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

All BMW are doing is switching ICE production from Munich to Austria, the UK & China, they haven’t announced that they will no longer be producing ICE vehicles at any date in the future, in fact BMW remain committed to ICE.

As true as this may be, and it certainly is true, there are those of us who would still prefer that our BMWs have motors built by Bavarian Motor Werks in Bavaria, Germany. We all know that we may have a transmission built in France and our car may have been assembled in any number of places other than Germany (even if we are less than thrilled about that), but our BMW motors always came from Germany and our preference would be for it to stay that way rather than acquiesce to the current insanity taking over the world.