[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Driving where you had to virtually 'wring out' the motor, pushing close to the limits in normal day-to-day driving, brought so much more satisfaction.

For many of us enthusiasts, yes. But for the masses, not.

And many enthusiasts just want the speed, they don't care about a high-revving motor that you need to wring out. The numbers matter, which is why many tune their cars to add more horsepower. They want to win stoplight races and highway pulls.

And others simply want to feel the power at throttle tip-in, and not have to wait to feel the power of the engine.

Thus, BMW factors in their total audience, not just old-school enthusiasts. Plus, BMW gives customers the ability to adjust all kinds of components in their cars, so we can tune the car to our tastes...which I, for one, appreciate. Hec, one of my favorite traits of my G82 is the wide gulf between its Jekyll and Hyde personalities.

The crazy, "chasing headline figures" is part of the problem.

...for you, and me too. But not for a lot of other enthusiasts. Hec, for many others, they're mad when the newest generation isn't more powerful and handles decidedly "better" than the past.

My memories of many UK vehicles in the 1970 and 80's. We had to work our vehicles, no choice, and being much more basic, no HPAS, no ABS, servo brakes if you were lucky, (or upgraded). So much fun and genuine satisfaction, even if the 0 - 60 was over 10 seconds.

...and they still make Miatas and GR86s just for you, Pete. There are still a handful of cars you can buy today, with a manual nonetheless, that fit the bill. Get 'em while you can.

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Except there's a crap ton of benefits to having a newer and more modern car, and a lot of improvements along the way. Your comment, seen many times from others, makes it seem like people want BMW to be stuck in the 80's, or 90's, or wherever and never change. That's not the case. We'd very much like the new car, and most of what comes with it, just NOT with the numbness, the feedback and engagement that has been intentionally dialed out. So, no, buying an old car isn't really all great and wonderful either.

"Newer is not always better." ...in terms of the experience. But, as we talked about before, in regards to raw numbers, newer is indeed often better (higher performance, safer and more comfortable, and more efficient).

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” - Henry Ford

"Change does not necessarily assure progress, but progress implacably requires change." - Henry Commager

And change is so very hard for many of us to accept...

[AndreM2]

“Simplify, then add lightness” - Colin Chapman.

Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere. - Colin Chapman

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

“Simplify, then add lightness” - Colin Chapman.

Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere. - Colin Chapman

Which is why I traded my 4000 lb M3 comp X drive for a 3500 lb Z4M40i. It’s funny though I’ve seen weight numbers ranging from 3300-3600.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Which is why I traded my 4000 lb M3 comp X drive for a 3500 lb Z4M40i. It’s funny though I’ve seen weight numbers ranging from 3300-3600.

man... the G80 felt like such a big car to me lol... there was no masking it...

the stiffness and handling of it cheats it a little bit but in the end it's still a large car... then that torque curve which doesn't hit until over 4k and somehow it didn't feel FAR faster to me than an F80... i dunno... it just didn't feel special to me

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by ASAP

man... the G80 felt like such a big car to me lol... there was no masking it...

the stiffness and handling of it cheats it a little bit but in the end it's still a large car... then that torque curve which doesn't hit until over 4k and somehow it didn't feel FAR faster to me than an F80... i dunno... it just didn't feel special to me

So my e93 was heavier, but the engine and chassis were a really special combo. And how the engine pulled up to red line with increasing ferocity - like entering warp drive. The G80 chassis is so stiff that hitting road reflectors felt like it jarred my spine. The power was relentless and the grip but entering corners especially downhill with speed the car just felt so, so heavy. I would take the e93 every day over the g80 for the smaller size, supple chassis and engine even though it’s heavier. Or go with an e90/92 for sure. The f80 comp manual was great except for the torque curve and the power delivery was like a slingshot.

[Marcoose]

I'm at my fifth and likely last BMW. They surely left me behind. My next car will likely be an everyday Honda or Ford. At least I'll know it's just an appliance. Zero chance of being disappointed.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Hassan1490

I'm taking about the people who absurdly claim that the brand has lost its way or the company will be dead soon.
I currently have two modern M cars and found them way better compared to any older M car. The best driving dynamics in the auto industry.

BMW is still a true car enthusiast, but not the aging enthusiast, probably!

Boomers want BMW to stay outdated and crappy like in 1990. Well, you can get an Alfa Romeo, which it tried its best to have light, RWD, and a driver car, but guess what!
It sold only 5000 units per year.
On the other hand, BMW could sell more X5 in one week.

BMW is not a charity. They have commitments to their shareholders, and the company must stay profitable by adapting to the newer world changes.
If BMW listened to those boomers, it would have be the second Nokia today.

So why such a hatred for boomers?? Did a boomer piss in your cherios?? Can you read the minds of boomers?? I know a whole lot of boomers and not a single one thinks that way. Unless, like tracer said, you're just a troll.

And Alfa sucks because their quality sucks. Every media review says the same thing, great driving car, but don't buy one unless you have your own personal mechanic.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Hassan1490

Boomers want BMW to stay outdated and crappy like in 1990.

I can assure you BMW was far from "crappy" in 1990.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

I'm at my fifth and likely last BMW. They surely left me behind. My next car will likely be an everyday Honda or Ford. At least I'll know it's just an appliance. Zero chance of being disappointed.

If you’ve given up hope, just get a tesla and forget all about driving pleasure.

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

I can assure you BMW was far from "crappy" in 1990.

+1. GenX here.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

+1. GenX here.

Same. Kids...

[TheMaxXHD]

I drove an E90 328i xDrive for years. I’d 100% take any day my M340ix that weighs like 300 pounds more, has all the newest tech. I personally like the way it drives more, though really, it is a slightly unfair comparison given the 328i didn’t have a sport suspension nor LSD or stuff like that, among other more sporty things.

I am unsure what to make of this thread. I have commented before, but I don’t see the issue. These are still phenomenal cars in terms of driving dynamics and build.

Either I am too young, or not rich enough (don’t own a proper M car), or both, or too stupid to understand why BMW M (or BMW in general) has supposedly lost it’s way.

If you want an older car, there is the used market. If you want a different new car, there are plenty of other cars made on the planet. Problem solved and everyone is happy.

As I said before, if I listened to this thread, you’d think my car is some sort of heavy brick on 4 wheels. Compared to my E90, I can confidently say it drives just as good, if not slightly better. Then again, maybe I am just stupid and I’d be better off driving a brick

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Either I am too young, or not rich enough (don’t own a proper M car), or both, or too stupid to understand why BMW M (or BMW in general) has supposedly lost it’s way.

You won't understand... There is no right or wrong answer, it's so subjective, however we look at these topics.

Perhaps I'm too old, been around BMW too long to get the polarisation and strong feelings, topics like this arouse.

Similar for all new models, the "love and hate", to what BMW "have or haven't" done. Like the 'dilution' of the M-brand with M-sport packages and the M-Performance models. Are M-Performance (M-Lite) models worthy of the M badge? It goes on and on.

Some talk as if it is all marketing, particularly of recent times. Some forget the 'M' was used, like on the E12 M535i, back in the 1970's, not something new at all. The M535i, both E12 and E28 preceded the first M-Car sedans. BMW have continued to build the marque, but not liked by some, for whatever reasons.

For many users, the current models are simply cars of our time. Does not make them bad vehicles, just because they are different to examples of previous generations. Not all of us would choose to go back to the older stuff, which were also excellent cars of their time.

I've got good memories of the older models, the E30 and E28 being a bit special as a young man. Today, give me the G20 or G30, of course they are different, and IMO much more appropriate for today's driving conditions and demands.

I rate the E39 (530i or M5) as the best BMW(s) ever, rated as the pinnacle, "the near perfect car", the "all-round" motor by many users and the wider motor industry. Other's may disagree, I understand. But do I still want one nearly 30-years on, from when it was designed? No, I'd sooner be driving my F11 with all the driving tech' it offers. Or moving on to the latest offerings.

BTW. I reckon I'm as much a BMW enthusiast, as any one on the forum. Over 50-years of witnessing the good and bad in the brand.

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Either I am too young, or not rich enough (don’t own a proper M car), or both, or too stupid to understand why BMW M (or BMW in general) has supposedly lost it’s way.

Back in the day, across the pond, proper petrol heads drove Quattro, Delta Integrale, 911, NSX, BMW M3 or even Golf GTI. Nobody drove Testa Rossa, Countach and other exotics because, frankly, they were pretty to look at but awfully capricious.

The M3 (and BMWs in general) were the driver's driver car. Sufficiently comfortable, very reliable, fun, stylish, the full monty. No gizmos. No heated mirrors, 12 premium speakers, computerised LSD, artificial engine noises, Sport+ button, RFTs, etc. You hopped on a BMW for the driving. If you want a plush ride, you drove a Merc, Jag, Citroen. If you only wanted an A-to-B car or were broke, you drove a Fiat or an Opel.

I was never a proper petrol head. But got my first 320i (used) in the 90s. The first M3 came shortly after. Going up to Nürburgring very early Saturday morning, putting 2-3 laps late in the afternoon, another 2-3 laps early Sunday, ahh ... pure bliss.

So many like me, who were there and experienced the early years of M (and BMW) performance are now very disappointed with what we get or is available nowadays. My own M-badged 35is was utter shite stock. It took a lot of work to make it into a semi-decent sportscar. Folk like me want a sufficiently comfortable and reliable car, that is well-planted, connected to the road, great on breaking, great on acceleration, great on bends. Flashy ceiling, flashy pipes, 5 buttons for max power, etc, it's simply not our thing.

[DanG]

No one is saying that BMW doesn’t make some nice daily drivers. But that is quite different than “The Ultimate Driving Machine”. M cars once were street legal track cars. Every generation of M cars seems to be less so. And let’s not talk about branding SUVs like the XM as M autos.

BMW seems to have become more of a luxury brand than a drivers brand. So I understand why people have said that “BMW has lost its way”.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by DanG

No one is saying that BMW doesn’t make some nice daily drivers. But that is quite different than “The Ultimate Driving Machine”. M cars once were street legal track cars. Every generation of M cars seems to be less so. And let’s not talk about branding SUVs like the XM as M autos.

So, which past M cars do you think were street-legal track cars? A handful at most, right? And most of those were the special, rare M versions (like the M4 GTS), not full-production M cars, right?

And those SUVs with the proper M badge on it, like an X5M or X3M, they are indeed proper M "vehicles" with loads of performance baked into a brick-like package. Sure, on a track, they don't make sense...but on the road, they make a lot of sense for many who want full practicality coupled with a high-performing machine.

Sure, its not for everyone, and I'd never buy one myself, but having driven an X5M on the track and on the road, all I can do is....



Hec, there were other M cars who couldn't keep up with me, in the straights AND in the corners.

[DanG]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

So, which past M cars do you think were street-legal track cars? A handful at most, right? And most of those were the special, rare M cars (like the M4 GTS), not full-production M cars, right?

And those SUVs with the proper M badge on it, like an X5M or X3M, they are indeed proper M "vehicles" with loads of performance baked into a brick-like package. Sure, on a track, they don't make sense...but on the road, they make a lot of sense for many who want full practicality coupled with a high-performing machine.

Sure, its not for everyone, and I'd never buy one myself, but having driven an X5M on the track and on the road, all I can do is....



Hec, there were other M cars who couldn't keep up with me, in the straights AND in the corners.

If you remember the E30 M3 was homologation of 5,000 cars needed to legally race. The M1 was also in that category.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by DanG

If you remember the E30 M3 was homologation of 5,000 cars needed to legally race. The M1 was also in that category.

yep, I remember that.

So, have any of the other 6 generations been "street-legal" track cars?

[Marcoose]

I’ve only owned one (real) M car, the 1995 E36 M3. European spec.

It was nowhere near a ‘street legal track car‘. But looking back at what friends and neighbours drove, that M3 was miles ahead of most of them. Except the 911s.

It was a sportscar for the car enthuse, without the new weird gadgets. Does one really need 10 buttons on tbe steering wheel for the ultimate drive ?

[AndreM2]

No not trackcars off factory but with some minor tweaks you could make them track-ready.

But now with all those heavy M trucks where you need to start at 1700kg (M2) it has no point anymore. To big, no Nimbleness and to heavy to start with to make it a track-car.

You could make good track-cars out of an E30 M3, E36 M3, E46 M3, 1m Coupe, M2 and M2c but the new m3 and M4 are to heavy so is the new M2. So it is done and dusted at BMW M!

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

No not trackcars off factory but with some minor tweaks you could make them track-ready.

But now with all those heavy M trucks where you need to start at 1700kg (M2) it has no point anymore. To big, no Nimbleness and to heavy to start with to make it a track-car.

You could make good track-cars out of an E30 M3, E36 M3, E46 M3, 1m Coupe, M2 and M2c but the new m3 and M4 are to heavy so is the new M2. So it is done and dusted at BMW M!

Actually, having driven the G82 at the track, that's where it shines the most. The car seems to get smaller at the track, because you can take it up to the edge of adhesion and not be as concerned about its size. And it's fun, loads of fun, to slide around, playing with the 10-step traction control to control drifts/slides, or dialing it in to attack apexes and go for your best track time.

And the steering is sharp, and the turn-in is pretty crisp.

Plus, the carbon fiber buckets are perfect for the track, completely holding you in place, and sitting you low in the cabin. The driving position is perfection.

Also, the inline-6 sounds pretty good when you're really pushing it, especially if you code out the sound being pumped through the speakers.

And the power delivery feels quite linear, and the neutral chassis puts the power down (AWD not even needed).

No, it'll never be a small, nimble M car with top-flight agility like the smaller, past M models like the E30, E46, 1M and M2. But the G8X is a different animal, and it's quite thrilling and great to drive on the track. Yes, you're going to eat through tires and brakes pretty quickly because of its size, but when you reach this level of performance, you gotta pay to play.

So, to those BMW engineers who tuned the large G8X chassis to perfection...



And quite a few automotive pundits have concluded that, at the track, pound for pound, it's the best M3 ever. Sometimes loads of horsepower plus proper suspension tuning is even better than driving slower cars fast.

[pegogetem]

I beg to differ, most of the older men think this way, BMW is in the lead for one of the most innovative brands. Change is good and I love the direction they’re going.