[Gort]

Originally Posted by SoYank

Is that a statute or an urban legend? If a statute, would you care to cite?

Florida law allows a citizen to transport a weapon in a private vehicle, even if that citizen DOES NOT HAVE a concealed weapon license. Note the following two key provisions in the law:

Section 790.25(5), which deals specifically with possession in a private conveyance states that "it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. Nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorize the carrying of a concealed firearm or other weapon on the person. This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons, including lawful self-defense as provided in s. 776.012." (Emphasis added.)

Section 790.001(17) defines the term "securely encased" to mean "in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster or in a gun case, whether or not locked; with manual safety set in locked position."

[E36_325i]

I have an XD45 and love it. Seems like the perfect weapon for self defense and it's also fun at the range. The pistol grip safety is non intrusive as well. Just make sure you're actually holding the pistol and it will fire.

[uberschnell]

CC permit in Cali is practically out of the question. Sad in my opinion. I lived in North Carolina for a while. Practically everyone there carries, permit or not. And I never had a gun pulled on me once while living there, of course people tend to treat each other with a little more respect around there, hmmmmm.

As I'm stuck in cali, i'm thinking of carrying this:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4212944.html

I'd be a lot more inclined to use this to defuse a situation rather then a gun, and probably with far less consequence legally.

[HappyG]

Originally Posted by Magna3

CC permit in Cali is practically out of the question. Sad in my opinion. I lived in North Carolina for a while. Practically everyone there carries, permit or not. And I never had a gun pulled on me once while living there, of course people tend to treat each other with a little more respect around there, hmmmmm.

As I'm stuck in cali, i'm thinking of carrying this:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blog...s/4212944.html

I'd be a lot more inclined to use this to defuse a situation rather then a gun, and probably with far less consequence legally.

CCW permits vary greatly on the issuing city or county. LA county is a pretty much no-no. Other parts of the state are actually not as bad as most make it to be, but the steps needed, fees, and paperwork are usually more then enough to deter would be permit holders.
________
Honda ST series (minibike) history
________
CoeD

[Cadillac Johnson]

For those of you with experience with both guns, what do you prefer, and why? Comparing Sig 226 and HK USP.

Oh, and being from WI, we dont have CC laws here.. So it would be for target/range etc. then possible CC in the future. Although I'll probly get something smaller if they finally pass CC laws here. Fuckin Governor veto'd the last bill..

[Evil Diesel]

Oh joy. I have to go to the States in October and looking at this thread I have to conclude that everyone is packing in the name of self defense.

Terific.

Does anyone know where I can buy kevlar underpants?

[toofasttooslow]

Originally Posted by Cadillac Johnson

For those of you with experience with both guns, what do you prefer, and why? Comparing Sig 226 and HK USP.

Oh, and being from WI, we dont have CC laws here.. So it would be for target/range etc. then possible CC in the future. Although I'll probly get something smaller if they finally pass CC laws here. Fuckin Governor veto'd the last bill..

H&K all the way. Why? Grip, recoil, action,durability,reliability,balance. It feels better when shooting it. I'm confident that if I have to draw it I will most likely kill my target without worrying about jamming.I did like the Sig's though too. Either one is quality worksmanship.

SIG P226R
Caliber 9mm, .357 SIG, .40 S&W
Trigger Pull DA/SA 10.0 lbs/4.5 lbs
Overall Length 7.70”
Overall Height 5.50”
Overall Width 1.50”
Barrel Length 4.40”
Sight Radius 6.30”
Sights SIGLITE® Night Sights
Weight w/ Mag 34.0 oz --2lbs 2oz
Mag Capacity 9mm 10 or 15 Rounds
Mag Capacity .357 SIG 10 or 12 Rounds
Mag Capacity .40 S&W 10 or 12 Rounds
Grips Black Polymer Factory Grips
Finish Nitron®
MSRP $853, $920 w/ Night Sights
CA Compliant Yes
MA Compliant Yes


USP
9mm .40 .45
Overall length 7.64" 7.64" 7.87"
Overall height 5.35" 5.35" 5.55"
Overall width 1.26" 1.26" 1.26"
Barrel length 4.25" 4.25" 4.41"
Sight radius 6.22" 6.22" 6.34"
weight
Without magazine 1.65 lb 1.65 lb 1.74 lb
other specifications
Magazine capacity 15 Cartridges
13 Cartridges
12 Cartridges
Single Action (SA)
trigger pull - - -
Double Action (DA)
trigger pull - - -
Sights 3-dot
3-dot 3-dot

[Gort]

Originally Posted by Cadillac Johnson

For those of you with experience with both guns, what do you prefer, and why? Comparing Sig 226 and HK USP.

Oh, and being from WI, we dont have CC laws here.. So it would be for target/range etc. then possible CC in the future. Although I'll probly get something smaller if they finally pass CC laws here. Fuckin Governor veto'd the last bill..

Have both. If I could only keep one it would be the HK USP. It is 100% reliable, accurate, and most of all soft shooting (especially for 40 S&W). It goes right back on target. The Sig is not bad by any means. Wisconsin and Illinois are both Draconian in their gun laws.

[Cadillac Johnson]

Couple more questions for you guys.

What are your thoughts on the .357SIG round?

I was 99% set on an HK USP 9mm, but recently I've been thouroughly intrigued with the .357SIG. The problem is, I really like the HK USP full size. I know you can simply swap the barrel on the .40 and you can shoot SIG rounds. Although I've heard that this combo has issues with proper feeding. The .357 USP compact doesn't seem to have these problems, but I'm really looking for a full size. Which leaves me with my second choice the Sig p226r in the 357SIG trim.

So, does anyone have experience with converting an HK USP .40 to .357SIG?

OR,

Would I be better off just getting the p226r in .357SIG trim and getting a .40 barrel if I wanted the option?

[down4it]

I have a .45 ACP Sig Revolution, PPK/S .380(for carry) , Ruger Mark 3 22/45.... Ive been havin way too much fun with that .22 lately, one of my favorite guns by far but i have the .45 with Hydrashocks at home for unwelcomed guests... I think my next one will be an HK USP .40...

[Revlis]

If I had to choose it would be the SIG226 without a doubt. 9mm is a little light, but the absolute perfect fit, superb natural pointing, and quality construction make it an easy choice. I liked the USP, But it never felt nearly as correct to me as the 226.

BUT

It's all about personal preference, SIG, Smith &Wesson, HK whatever. It's all about what works for you. There are very few crappy weapons out there, you get what you pay for though.

The XD 45 will be my next sidearm. I've been shooting the rental at my local range and it's the first .45 that appeals to me more than the Glock. I'm not a 1911 fan at all, but I like the .45ACP caliber.

Anyone looking to buy their first handgun really owes it to themselves to get some training, get to the range, and rent a bunch of different guns until you find that ONE that fits in your hand perfectly. You'll find mostly Mall Ninja's and Know it all Range Commando's on the web. KNOW IT ALL ASSHOLES that are busier pushing their own favorites than providing useful information.


ETA: FWIW I really like the SIG226 in 9mm.

[Revlis]

OH and yeah, find a .22cal rimfire pistol, Ruger, Browning, Walther, etc all make excellent rimfire pistols that will keep you entertained for hours without blowing through a bunch of $$$ on Ammo.

[RokX]

Broke into owning double digits in my colleciton recently. I just purchased a new HK P2000 .40 and a Kimber Pro Covert II .45

Both are great to shoot, feel great, etc. It's hard choosing my favorite, it's like choosing your favorite kid. Guess the only way I will figure out which to use for carry is take 'em to the range and shoot the crap out of them

[Revlis]

Originally Posted by RokX

Broke into owning double digits in my colleciton recently. I just purchased a new HK P2000 .40 and a Kimber Pro Covert II .45

Both are great to shoot, feel great, etc. It's hard choosing my favorite, it's like choosing your favorite kid. Guess the only way I will figure out which to use for carry is take 'em to the range and shoot the crap out of them

Which will be a REAL drag right?

[RokX]

Originally Posted by Revlis

Which will be a REAL drag right?

I'm absolutely dreading it............lol

[Gort]

Originally Posted by Cadillac Johnson

Couple more questions for you guys.

What are your thoughts on the .357SIG round?

I was 99% set on an HK USP 9mm, but recently I've been thouroughly intrigued with the .357SIG. The problem is, I really like the HK USP full size. I know you can simply swap the barrel on the .40 and you can shoot SIG rounds. Although I've heard that this combo has issues with proper feeding. The .357 USP compact doesn't seem to have these problems, but I'm really looking for a full size. Which leaves me with my second choice the Sig p226r in the 357SIG trim.

So, does anyone have experience with converting an HK USP .40 to .357SIG?

OR,

Would I be better off just getting the p226r in .357SIG trim and getting a .40 barrel if I wanted the option?

I have a SIG P229 with interchangeable barrels (.40S&W and .357SIG). I personally like the .357 SIG a lot. Ballistically it is not much different than a .357 Mag, which has a long history of being a potent round. The other pluses for the .357SIG are a bottleneck shaped casing that virtually guarantees feed reliability (the P229 has had zero feedjams in over 2500 rounds fired), and less recoil than the .40 S&W. The only negative is that the ammo is just a little harder to find and tends to be a little more expensive. That really isn't much of an issue for me.

[ukthunderace]

The best handgun/caliber is the one that fits your hand and that you can shoot consistently into center mass at 10-15 meters at rapid fire. I would rather have a rimfire .22 that I could put 10 shots into the size of my palm rapidfire than a .45 that I could put one or two in.
I took my son out shooting a couple weeks back (we go a few times a month) and we decided to practice rapid fire. My 9mm were all in the space of a palm at 15 yards whereas my son shooting a Rem Rand .45 (1911 from WWII) could only place two shots at most on rapid fire.
It is similar to the "I have to get more horsepower!!" when you can't even effectively use what you have. Get what fits and get it on target. If you want to move up after that, go for it.

[Cadillac Johnson]

Originally Posted by Gort

I have a SIG P229 with interchangeable barrels (.40S&W and .357SIG). I personally like the .357 SIG a lot. Ballistically it is not much different than a .357 Mag, which has a long history of being a potent round. The other pluses for the .357SIG are a bottleneck shaped casing that virtually guarantees feed reliability (the P229 has had zero feedjams in over 2500 rounds fired), and less recoil than the .40 S&W. The only negative is that the ammo is just a little harder to find and tends to be a little more expensive. That really isn't much of an issue for me.

Due to increased pressures, have you seen any pre-mature wear and tear with the .357sig rounds?

From what I understand it's like shooting +p 9mm rounds all the time, as far as what to expect wear wise.

[scollins]

I'm coming to the party a little late here, but I'll throw in my experience too. The OP has already selected a handgun, but others have sought input as well.

First off, I believe in the genius of John Moses Browning. The 1911 is the ultimate combat sidearm of all time. That just isn't my opinion, but the opinion of many well respected firearms instructors, military operators and shooters across the world. There is a reason that companies like S&W, Sig, Taurus and others have introduced 1911s in the very recent past. There is a huge demand for them.

It doesn't matter that the design is 100 years old now, it works and it works well. Show me something else that has gone through small refinements, but is still basically the same after 100 years? The 1911 is just as relevant today as it was when it was adopted by the Army in 1911.

Having said that, I don't actually own a "1911" anymore. My competition gun is actually an STI 2011. This is widebody, polymer frame weapon that is based on the 1911's pattern and manual of arms. Mine is chambered in 40S&W, and holds 16 rounds in "carry mode" and 20 rounds in "competition mode." It is still basically a 1911 though.

The 1911 has many features that give it an edge over more modern designs.
1.) It is a very slim handgun, especially when chambered in 45ACP vs. Glock, Sig, HK. This is a very important feature for a gun that is to be carried "inside the waistband." Advantage 1911.

2.) It has a low "bore axis", meaning that the centerline of the bore is nearly inline with your forearm when in a proper shooting stance. The Glock has a low bore axis. The Sig and HK have very high bore axes. This makes recoil more pronounced, as the "moment arm" is higher with the higher bore axis. Advantage 1911.

3.) Weight. 1911's come in all weight ranges now, although they still tend to be slightly heavier than "plastic fantastics." But, my 2011 is technically a "plastic fantastic". Advantage slightly to polymer framed guns.

4.) Capacity. The traditional 1911 is at a disadvantage in terms of MAGAZINE capacity (it's not a freakin' clip!!!!) 9 rounds of 45 ACP are all you will get in a traditional 1911 with magazines that don't extend past the bottom. The Glock 21 has a 14 round capacity, which is a 56% increase in capacity. But as I noted, 1911s are available in many flavors, including my 2011. I still call the Advantage to the competition on this one. But, shot placement is still far more important than magazine capacity!

5.) The 1911 has a single action trigger, and I don't think anyone can argue that a double action, Glock SafeAction, or any DA/SA pistol can compete with the 1911 in "trigger feel." This is just no comparison. Advantage 1911.

6.) Reliability. Many like to think the 1911 is unreliable. That simply isn't true. Competition shooters will not use an unreliable platform because that will cost them a match win. And yet, the 1911 is the overwhelming choice of top competition shooters. Sure, there are the Dave Sevigny's of the world that can win with a Glock, but that is the exception, not the rule. Cheap 1911's tend to be unreliable, but those from reputable companies work. My STI hasn't had a single jam in over 4,000 rounds. Advantage? I call it a wash.

7.) Price. The average high quality 1911 is a big investment. Any quality handgun is a big investment, but 1911s are even more so. A Glock will set you back about $500, a Sig or HK about $900, and a Kimber or Springfield Armory about $1000. However, the sky's the limit on 1911's. Buy a Nighthawk 1911, and you won't get out the door for less than $2,500!! Advantage Glock.

Now, after extolling the virtues of the 1911, my EDC handgun is a Glock 23 in 40S&W. Has been for many years. Why? Because I wanted a lighter weight handgun with increased capacity that was very reliable, and that I wouldn't mind having it stored in police evidence should the need arise to use it in a defensive situation. It is very likely that if you should happen to use a handgun in self defense, that gun will be taken away for awhile and put into evidence. The last thing I want is my $2000 STI sitting in a police evidence locker when my $400 Glock could be sitting there!

Also, at the time I decided on the Glock 23, it was one of the few choices of a compact auto that was lighter in weight and offered decent "firepower." It was purchased used in 1994 (made in 1991), and has been nearly 100% reliable every since. It did malfunction the other day. My extractor broke, after untold thousands of rounds and 16 years. $20 later and my Glock is back in tip top form.

I don't like Sigs, HKs, S&Ws or Berettas for a few reasons:
1.) They have high bore axes, which increases muzzle flip and makes them harder to control.

2.) I detest DA/SA pistols in general, and I especially don't like the Sig's decocking lever placement. If I were to get a Sig, it would be one with the DAK trigger. The only other problem for me with Sigs is the slide stop location, which winds up right under my strong hand thumb. I use a "high thumb" grip because of the 1911. This has the tendency to deactivate it, which is less than ideal. HKs are a little better in that you can spec a thumb safety, but they still tend to have decocking levers. Again, you can spec a DA only trigger, and that is what I'd do.

3.) I don't like HKs because the trigger reach always seems too long to me, and I can't shoot them as well. I also don't care for their magazine release.
4.) Berettas have slide mounted safeties, which I really don't like.

5.) Traditionally S&W autos have been total shit. I think the new M&P shows promise though. Older S&W autos also have magazine disconnects, which royally piss me off. That is one feature designed to get you killed in a gun fight (although they bill it as a "safety" feature.)

As for which caliber, that is a can of worms that will generate a firestorm! I think a self defense caliber should start with a "4." My first choice is 40S&W, followed by 45ACP. 40S&W is just as readily available as 45ACP, as it is the #1 choice in caliber for Law Enforcement. It is cheaper than 45ACP too, provided you shop around for it. But 40S&W is universally available.

Advancement in bullet design have increased the effectiveness of the 9mm cartridge. I still wouldn't choose it as my primary round, but it does make sense, especially for those sensitive to recoil and women. More shots on target with a 9mm are better than missed shots on target with a 45ACP. Stick with 40S&W or 45ACP, with 9mm a distant third.

Personally, I would avoid 357SIG. It is a great round, but ammo is harder to come by and quite expensive. The best thing you can do is practice, practice, practice, and I don't think that is as likely with a 357SIG.

But this isn't a debate about the 1911 vs. ALL, or even a 45 ACP vs. ALL debate. The best handgun is the one that YOU shoot the best, and fits YOU the best. I can shoot a 45 ACP 1911 faster and more accurately than a Sig 9mm. If you can shoot the Sig 9mm really well, then by all means buy that one.

Also, if you plan to carry the handgun concealed, don't go cheap on the holster and belt. Buy a quality holster, even if it costs $100, and buy a dedicated "gun belt" too. I spent many years using whatever belt I had, and it sucked. As soon as I bought a double-thick horsehide gun belt from Kramer, I was amazed at how comfortable it was to carry a Glock 23 and a spare magazine 16 hours a day. A good gun belt is not cheap, usually $90 or more. But again, if it isn't comfortable to carry a handgun because of a cheap holster and belt, you won't have it when you need. And the only way to ensure you have it when you need it is to carry all day, every day.

The belt and holster are a system, don't go cheap! Kramer Leather, Milt Sparks, Mitch Rosen, Galco, Comp-Tac, Blade-Tech are all fine holster makers. The choice of leather vs. Kydex is another one for you to decide. My current rig is leather, but Kydex is good too. I can't stress it enough, buy a good holster and a good belt!

The last bit of advice I'm going to offer it this: After buying the gun, TAKE A CLASS OR TWO on the defensive use of a handgun. Also, budget as much for ammo as you can. It is of little use to buy one and then let it sit, hoping you'll remember how to use it when the time comes. 200 rounds a month is a good number (50 rounds per week.)

Did you make it all the way through that long post?

[Gort]

Originally Posted by Cadillac Johnson

Due to increased pressures, have you seen any pre-mature wear and tear with the .357sig rounds?

From what I understand it's like shooting +p 9mm rounds all the time, as far as what to expect wear wise.

The Sig P229 is built to take the pressures and slide speed of the .357SIG. The slide is machined from solid stainless. The front of the frame is where you might expect wear to happen, but after 2500 rounds there is none. I also have a compact Glock 33 (.357SIG) and it also shows no sign of wear. I'll say one thing about the .357SIG and that is that it is loud with a resounding "crack" when you fire it.

PS - If you want the best handful of firepower, you can't beat the Glock 20 with 16 rounds of 10mm, but it is probably too much to manage effectively for a lot of people. Misses with a big gun don't count as much as hits with a lesser round.

[Cadillac Johnson]

Being in Wisconsin, I cant carry a gun, so it's going to be target/range/plinking.

If I were going for C&C I'd get an XD45C or Walther PPS, but since I'm not, I'm going for accuracy and fun, and from what I understand, accuracy is one of the things the 357sig excells at over the 9mm, .40 and .45.

I dont like Glocks, lots of my friends love them, and I've tried to like them, but I just dont. They just feel cheap and un-natural in my hands. HK's, XD's, or Walther's would be my first choices in a polymer.

The increased ammo cost isn't a big deal as far as I'm concerned. Everywhere I've looked it's within 5% of .40 or .45 ammo. I also plan on getting it by the case and Ammoman.com has some pretty good deals.

Gort- Have you used the Sig SRT? It seems everyone who's had the conversion done said it's the best thing they've done and could never go back. Sig says they can do the work for $100, with a 10day turn-a-round.

Also, durability wise, how is Nitron compared to stainless? Reason I ask, is I want the night sites, and most likely the SRT work. Both of those are standard on the Elite series, and the Elite is available in Nitron or full stainless. I could do without the wood grips, but they could be sold to offset some of the cost of some Hogue matte black aluminum grips.

[schnell325]

I wish I had a hand gun...