[FitzMLife]

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

Yea & I can make my Hellcat even faster with $3500 too. You are not getting the point

Hellcat is more expensive than a Supra or M240i....

I'd buy a Supra if they fixed the issues in the next model year. But right now the M240i and M2 are superior cars.

[FuriouslyFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I don't think they're going to take 50% of the cylinders out and then charge more.

The current car is overpriced. Lower it all. It's a $30k car IMO

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

The current car is overpriced. Lower it all. It's a $30k car IMO

Don't be silly. Name a $30k car that's rear wheel drive, has more than 300hp, fixed calipers, a limited slip and can put up similar track times to an M2C.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

The current car is overpriced. Lower it all. It's a $30k car IMO

A camry is 30K, that's insane.

[Conissah]

The profit margins in these cars are very very small. We are talking ~8.5% profit on an M2... They have far more than 30k into these cars. While the Supra is an innately cheaper car, I HIGHLY doubt the margins on it are large enough to warrant a massive price decrease. This isn't a 911 here, where the margins are near 50%. There is little wiggle room.

[duder13]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

You are in a very small minority if you think the 1er doesn't handle well.

Current 135i owner here. It doesn't handle all that well stock. I was coming from a Cayman, which is about as good as it gets, and the 135i stock felt bouncy and squishy. Spend a few thousand in M3 and other suspension parts, though, and the 135i becomes fantastic. Spend more on an LSD and tuning stuff, and I'd probably take it over any other modern era BMW.

As far as the Supra goes, it's a fine performing car, but I don't like the style, I don't like that it's basically a BMW underneath, and I don't like that it doesn't have a manual. I'd rather have a used M2 with a stick, and it's much more practical to boot.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by duder13

Current 135i owner here. It doesn't handle all that well stock. Spend a few thousand in M3 and other suspension parts, though, and it is fantastic. Spend more on an LSD and tuning stuff, and I'd probably take it over any other modern era BMW.

Agreed. With those changes it's a great car. I still love the way they look.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Never seen a stock N55 hold power up high. This is base to base, you should see similar comparisons to the 1M vs M2 non comp curves too. The S55 and S58 clearly don't have these shortcomings.

[IMG]https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/u...N54-vs-N55.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/u...ue-750x500.jpg[/IMG]

Those aren't the dyno graphs of the 2014+ N55s. The early non-EWG N55s have smaller turbos. Although BMW kept the power rating the same, there's a difference in stock power and the shape of the curve between the pre-2014 and 2014+ N55s. The EWG N55s can make 390-400whp/400-420wtq on 93 whereas the non-EWG variants are limited to around 360whp/380wtq plus they lose power above 5600rpms.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...7&postcount=74

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vf-...35i-p4585.aspx

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=30

Tunes simply elevate the curve and power still tends to peak between 6000-6200rpm.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Those aren't the dyno graphs of the 2014+ N55s. The early non-EWG N55s have smaller turbos. Although BMW kept the power rating the same, there's a difference in stock power and the shape of the curve between the pre-2014 and 2014+ N55s. The EWG N55s can make 390-400whp/400-420wtq on 93 whereas the non-EWG variants are limited to around 360whp/380wtq plus they lose power above 5600rpms.

https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show...8;postcount=74

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vf-...35i-p4585.aspx

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8;postcount=30

Tunes simply elevate the curve and power still tends to peak between 6000-6200rpm.

Okay, so for what, a model year and a half, the N55 wasn't as bad? Then it got replaced with the B58. I doubt anyone misses it. And it took them 9 years to get around to making it at least equal to the previous N54. Imagine if they'd just continued to develop the better motor?

You asked why the opinion remains that the N54 was better. For the great majority of the N55 run, the N54 was a better lump. I don't own either now, don't really miss either. I'd take a goofball, please shim my valves again, S54 over either.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

They better announce much better pricing too. It's not a $50k car

Most new B58 Supras are now being listed $4 to 5K off list so that means you should be able to pick one up for low $50s pretty easily.

These cars run lower 12s stock. They make around 350whp/400wtq stock. A tune alone pushes them into the 400-420whp and 500wtq range. That's a deep 11 second car with $600-800 in mods. If one wants a fast and generally reliable, 2 seater, for around $50K, the Supra fits that bill well.

[stein_325i]

4-Cylinder model officially confirmed, now gets the 382hp Inline-6, or at least they changed the stated HP numbers.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...a-photos-info/

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Okay, so for what, a model year and a half, the N55 wasn't as bad? Then it got replaced with the B58. I doubt anyone misses it. And it took them 9 years to get around to making it at least equal to the previous N54. Imagine if they'd just continued to develop the better motor?

Just trying to inform people like yourself that continue to spread misinformation about the N55 because they didn't know about the motor changes in the later years and continue to say the N55 doesn't make power like the N54 and can't sustain power any better either because none of that is true.

It didn't take them 9 years to make a "better" motor to succeed the N54 either. In 2014, the N55 surpassed the stock whp/wtq of the N54. 1M and M2 N55 make similar peak power numbers, but the N55 breathes longer thus the reason why it's the quicker and faster car.

You probably don't know that the 2014+ N55 also uses the S55 forged rods and rod bearings or that the crank in the M235/M2 N55 is forged (vs cast in all other N55s) along with additional oil coolers so that oil overheating is never an issue in those two cars. By better, you're surely not talking about reliability between the N54 and N55

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Just trying to inform people like yourself that continue to spread misinformation about the N55 because they didn't know about the motor changes in the later years and continue to say the N55 doesn't make power like the N54 and can't sustain power any better either because none of that is true.

It didn't take them 9 years to make a "better" motor to succeed the N54 either. In 2014, the N55 surpassed the stock whp/wtq of the N54. 1M and M2 N55 make similar peak power numbers, but the N55 breathes longer thus the reason why it's the quicker and faster car.

You probably don't know that the 2014+ N55 also uses the S55 forged rods and rod bearings or that the crank in the M235/M2 N55 is forged (vs cast in all other N55s) along with additional oil coolers so that oil overheating is never an issue in those two cars. By better, you're surely not talking about reliability between the N54 and N55

Oh lord, the N54 was perfectly reliable once they finally got around to sorting out the HPFP. But it did take $20k of warranty repairs on ours to get it all sorted, and tons of out of service days. One reason I know how much better a stock E9x handled.

[duder13]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You asked why the opinion remains that the N54 was better. For the great majority of the N55 run, the N54 was a better lump.

I don't necessarily agree with that, even with early N55s, unless you're looking for power over 400whp, and even that is started to get negated when adding aftermarket turbos, the later N55 forged crank, etc. Outside of the obvious reliability advantage, the N55 feels better and sounds better than the N54, but I only have mine tuned to around 360 whp. Also, the N55 had better cooling in the block.

[Red Bread]

Looks like no manual, but more power for the 6.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...a-photos-info/

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

4-Cylinder model officially confirmed, now gets the 382hp Inline-6, or at least they changed the stated HP numbers.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...a-photos-info/

Damn. That means they're giving the Supra the Z4 B58 tune. That means an additional 20 to 50 whp above 5000rpms. Torque stays the same though. https://g29.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1657836

An extra 50whp in the powerband will equate to a drop of around 0.5 seconds and an additional 4-5 mph in the 1/4 mile. It should be a solid upper 11-second at 116-118mph car. It should be quicker/faster than the M2C, Mustang GT350, and Camaro SS 1LE which are all in that $50-60K price range. Still well off the pace of the C8 though.

[Red Bread]

Should definitely be $30k.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by duder13

I don't necessarily agree with that, even with early N55s, unless you're looking for power over 400whp, and even that is started to get negated when adding aftermarket turbos, the later N55 forged crank, etc. Outside of the obvious reliability advantage, the N55 feels better and sounds better than the N54, but I only have mine tuned to around 360 whp. Also, the N55 had better cooling in the block.

No issues with carbon build up because of the revised PVC system, far more reliable fuel injectors with no need for injector coding on replacement, more reliable coil packs, no issues with the HPFP, no issues with wastegates, and far less turbo system complication/hoses/vacuum systems. The N55 still has the other common issues though like water pumps, OFHG and valve cover gasket leaks, and oil pan leaks. Early N55s also had issues with rod bearings and I think the change to the S55 rod bearings was the driver with that.

Back on topic, turbo access on the Supra is wide open. Turbo replacements now take a couple of hours because of the lack of an external exhaust manifold. It's all right there once you remove the airbox. It's so different (and easy) compare to the N54 and N55 which required a ton of time to remove and replace turbos.

Pure Stage 2 turbo, tune, and E30 and you're deep into the 10s. I do wonder about longevity of the ZF 8AT behind that kind of power and the cooling capacity of the radiator and water to liquid IC at those sort of power levels.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

No issues with carbon build up because of the revised PVC system, far more reliable fuel injectors with no need for injector coding on replacement, more reliable coil packs, no issues with the HPFP, no issues with wastegates, and far less turbo system complication/hoses/vacuum systems. The N55 still has the other common issues though like water pumps, OFHG and valve cover gasket leaks, and oil pan leaks. Early N55s also had issues with rod bearings and I think the change to the S55 rod bearings was the driver with that.

Back on topic, turbo access on the Supra is wide open. Turbo replacements now take a couple of hours because of the lack of an external exhaust manifold. It's all right there once you remove the airbox. It's so different (and easy) compare to the N54 and N55 which required a ton of time to remove and replace turbos.

Pure Stage 2 turbo, tune, and E30 and you're deep into the 10s. I do wonder about longevity of the ZF 8AT behind that kind of power and the cooling capacity of the radiator and water to liquid IC at those sort of power levels.

Guy on YT (AdamLZ) has one currently making like 650 wheel. Intercooler doesn't seem to be an issue as of yet, but he (and most others) are running a meth kit, so that keeps the IAT's in check. Tranny seems to be holding, but axles at the strip on slicks, not so much. I'm interested to see where the inevitable ceiling is for the stock motor.

[spiceyxi]

I wonder what this will mean for the 1,700 new Supras currently on dealership lots.

I would have to imagine that is going to sting dealerships that are holding on to the slower expensive version. Unless of course their is a big price increase for 2021.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by spiceyxi

I wonder what this will mean for the 1,700 new Supras currently on dealership lots.

I would have to imagine that is going to sting dealerships that are holding on to the slower expensive version. Unless of course their is a big price increase for 2021.

This may explain the rather sudden multi-thousand below MSRP mark downs I've seen over the past week.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Conissah

Guy on YT (AdamLZ) has one currently making like 650 wheel. Intercooler doesn't seem to be an issue as of yet, but he (and most others) are running a meth kit, so that keeps the IAT's in check. Tranny seems to be holding, but axles at the strip on slicks, not so much. I'm interested to see where the inevitable ceiling is for the stock motor.

I'm not entirely convinced it was an axle. It almost sounds like something broke in the diff based on what I saw of him inspecting the damage on a lift.

Block wise, the limits appear to be the electric arc wire spray coated cylinder walls. I've been monitoring the 3/4 series forums where B58 owners have been reporting scoring of the cylinder walls in 20-60K mileage stock and tuned B58s. The issues are compression loss, misfires, and power loss. The fix is a short block replacement. Since liners aren't used, you can't hone the bore. Hopefully it's only an issue with the earlier B58s. The Supra uses the same short block, different head though.