[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I'm sorry, but this is one of the worst arguments against AWD that I can imagine. Basically, it boils down to: "AWD makes the road holding so competent that you'll be tempted to drive like a hoon." That's like blaming the gun for shooting deaths (which plenty of people do, I guess). I just can't get on board for that.

Well. maybe it different on your side of the pond, but this is my experience from here in the UK.

I could see the way it could go myself 20 years ago, when awd was a rareity, and now I'm seeing that new generation of drivers (largely brought up on fwd) that are only wanting high performance awd, "cos it's faster and safer". And with awd being much more widespread and freely available, it's what they all want.

My neighbour (nearly 20 years younger than me) is not an isolated case, the vast majority of people his age, than own an awd performance vehicle, when asked by me why......have always cited the cos it's faster and I'm less likely to crash mantra.
Certainly, a vast majority of stupid, irresponsible driving I see in the UK, they are in awd performance cars.

[midwest 340xi 6sp]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Well. maybe it different on your side of the pond, but this is my experience from here in the UK.

I could see the way it could go myself 20 years ago, when awd was a rareity, and now I'm seeing that new generation of drivers (largely brought up on fwd) that are only wanting high performance awd, "cos it's faster and safer". And with awd being much more widespread and freely available, it's what they all want.

My neighbour (nearly 20 years younger than me) is not an isolated case, the vast majority of people his age, than own an awd performance vehicle, when asked by me why......have always cited the cos it's faster and I'm less likely to crash mantra.
Certainly, a vast majority of stupid, irresponsible driving I see in the UK, they are in awd performance cars.

I would tend to blame the stupid, irresponsible drivers, not the drivetrain...

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

I don't think you need to have had it.......

However, I had a mildly tuned Audi Quattro for 2 weeks about 20 years ago........and got shot of it quickly, as it was just a stupid car for the road......it just gave you a false sense of security, whereby you just 'thought' you were a better driver than you were, and when it was going to go horribly wrong (as it would have eventually) it was going to be a VERY high speed ending......

Not for me.

My next door neighbour has a Audi RS3 and drives it like a dangerous lunatic, because, in his words, 'It's four wheel drive innit, so I can drive faster and not crash"

Muppet.


This is the only reason for needing awd

Thats not 4WD, not AWD. 2 different types of drive train. One has a transfer case and the other a differential. One is all the time and one can be 2WD, 4HI or 4LO.

But people get the false sense of security that AWD or 4WD is better in adverse conditions or just all around. If you drive like an asshat 24/7 because you "think" you can, you'll end up finding out the hard way that you were wrong. AWD/4WD isn't a MUST unless you do live in a place like Alaska.

[Ash83]

Based on the stat of what the M cars are used for (more than 90% do not see a single day on track and they are used as daily drivers) AWD will be great for every day especially snow.

Or this shit will happen :

[Jay-K]

too many speculations.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by Ash83

Based on the stat of what the M cars are used for (more than 90% do not see a single day on track and they are used as daily drivers) AWD will be great for every day especially snow.

Or this shit will happen :

Oh really?

[Ash83]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Oh really?

are you comparing going in straight line in a normal street and loose it to losing it on an APEX or when trying to make a Doughnut or on a slippry drag race!!!! nice try though

[Vigilante375]

Wait, wait....so you saying AWD doesn't help you corner better? Doesn't hold power better? Doesn't help you with any traction? OH GOD!

The drag strip video showed the other GT-R had no issues....so you're point on that is invalid. But isn't AWD suppose to OVERCOME slippery situations?! Isn't that why its better??!?!

AWD IS BETTER, but only in a straight line......at least that is what Mr. Huracan thought......http://jalopnik.com/video-shows-lamb...hwa-1680367973

Oh and.....

[modkrazy]

A lot of those turning/corner spins were folks coming in too tight into the turn, braking while turning, and lifting when they begin to spin. No amount of nanny tech will protect you from your own sucking. Ask me how I know. That Audi slide looked fun as hell up until the end.

Originally Posted by dbworld4k

The Ms were catered to true enthusiasts who don't bitch about a lack of low-end torque or slightly firm suspension. M cars were designed to be unapologetic in their sports car nature. Wringing out a motor to stratospheric RPMs with linear power delivery and crisp, nimble handling are values that used to be the core of BMW M. Not tuned 550i motors mated to a platform shared with a 7 series, and tweaked power trains found all over the lineups. That's not what a damn race-derived sports car is all about.

Every time I heard someone malign the S65 because "I have to shift down on the highway to pass people", I shed a tear for BMW M. Every day I see 328is and similar commuter-mobiles with more rice than a tricked-out Civic and M badges everywhere. BMW M is just a trim level; how many badges and random bits of carbon fiber crap do you want? Well we got the car for you!

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

Who is complaining about firm suspension, the M4's standard suspension is stiffer than than outgoing generation. The chassis is stiffer, more nimble, and lighter. It will remain the lightest in the class.

Complaining about normal series derived motors? The vast majority of M engines were based on one of the regular series motors.

M3/4 remains the benchmark in it's segment, in fact by definition seeing as every new performance model in the segment is literally compared to the M3/4 as soon as it's revealed. The e90's win over the 997 carrera was due to the points it amassed in the comfort/practicality department and it was extremely controversial at the time, don't pretend like the e9x M3 beat the 997 on driving dynamics alone.

How about some research on the new models before ranting?

When it comes to "important" categories, looks like they found the E92 to have more power, better handling and being more fun to drive, while the Porsche had better brakes and steering feel. So the M3 won in Chassis and Experience categories, which correlates to driving dynamics. If you delete all of the extra points it got for cargo/amenities/etc., you get a score of 208 vs 202, so it still wins.

Whereas in the new comparison, the M got crushed in every category worth mentioning. I await your next tilt, Don Quixote.

[dbworld4k]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

A lot of those turning/corner spins were folks coming in too tight into the turn, braking while turning, and lifting when they begin to spin. No amount of nanny tech will protect you from your own sucking. Ask me how I know. That Audi slide looked fun as hell up until the end.

Every time I heard someone malign the S65 because "I have to shift down on the highway to pass people", I shed a tear for BMW M. Every day I see 328is and similar commuter-mobiles with more rice than a tricked-out Civic and M badges everywhere. BMW M is just a trim level; how many badges and random bits of carbon fiber crap do you want? Well we got the car for you!

When it comes to "important" categories, looks like they found the E92 to have more power, better handling and being more fun to drive, while the Porsche had better brakes and steering feel. So the M3 won in Chassis and Experience categories, which correlates to driving dynamics. If you delete all of the extra points it got for cargo/amenities/etc., you get a score of 208 vs 202, so it still wins.

Whereas in the new comparison, the M got crushed in every category worth mentioning. I await your next tilt, Don Quixote.

Thank you.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Wait, wait....so you saying AWD doesn't help you corner better? Doesn't hold power better? Doesn't help you with any traction? OH GOD!

The drag strip video showed the other GT-R had no issues....so you're point on that is invalid. But isn't AWD suppose to OVERCOME slippery situations?! Isn't that why its better??!?!

AWD IS BETTER, but only in a straight line......at least that is what Mr. Huracan thought......http://jalopnik.com/video-shows-lamb...hwa-1680367973

Oh and.....

This post is borderline incomprehensible. No one has laid any claim that AWD makes it impossible to wreck a car. Push a car hard enough and it's going to lose traction. End of story.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

This post is borderline incomprehensible. No one has laid any claim that AWD makes it impossible to wreck a car. Push a car hard enough and it's going to lose traction. End of story.

Not really. Basically AWD is suppose to be superior in making sure you don't crash. That is what a lot of AWD nutswingers are trying to say, in this thread and a few others.

AWD = I can drive how I want and not get in an accident.

or

AWD = holds power better and the vehicle will not spin out, lose control or anything else that a "inferior" RWD vehicle will do.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Not really. Basically AWD is suppose to be superior in making sure you don't crash. That is what a lot of AWD nutswingers are trying to say, in this thread and a few others.

AWD = I can drive how I want and not get in an accident.

or

AWD = holds power better and the vehicle will not spin out, lose control or anything else that a "inferior" RWD vehicle will do.

I don't think anyone is saying that, at least I wasn't. AWD doesn't make you invincible and you're purposely being disingenuous in that sad straw man argument.

AWD gives you extra traction for obvious reasons while giving you some of the benefits of FWD and RWD. For performance oriented vehicles, if you did want to give an AWD option, RWD biased AWD would be the way to go. It isn't without it's downsides, mainly the extra weight. Since AWD systems in performance oriented vehicles are still biased to, typically, the rear, you can still break traction if you're not being careful. The margin of error tends to be smaller than on a RWD vehicle, especially has the HP and torque figures climb. You also have to be careful since with an AWD car, you can experience both understeer and oversteer depending on the car.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I don't think anyone is saying that, at least I wasn't. AWD doesn't make you invincible and you're purposely being disingenuous in that sad straw man argument.

AWD gives you extra traction for obvious reasons while giving you some of the benefits of FWD and RWD. For performance oriented vehicles, if you did want to give an AWD option, RWD biased AWD would be the way to go. It isn't without it's downsides, mainly the extra weight. Since AWD systems in performance oriented vehicles are still biased to, typically, the rear, you can still break traction if you're not being careful. The margin of error tends to be smaller than on a RWD vehicle, especially has the HP and torque figures climb. You also have to be careful since with an AWD car, you can experience both understeer and oversteer depending on the car.

I know the difference of RWD, FWD, AWD and 4WD. I am a car enthusiast and not biased on one certain platform, brand, manufacturer, etc. There are people on here who do think AWD is God and will not let you down no matter what kinda of power you're putting down. And also think that anything with 500+ HP needs to be AWD because RWD with that much power is "completely useless".

I would like to point out what other people have said, but that would take too much time. You're probably better off searching the forum for "AWD" and go from there.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

I know the difference of RWD, FWD, AWD and 4WD. I am a car enthusiast and not biased on one certain platform, brand, manufacturer, etc. There are people on here who do think AWD is God and will not let you down no matter what kinda of power you're putting down. And also think that anything with 500+ HP needs to be AWD because RWD with that much power is "completely useless".

I would like to point out what other people have said, but that would take too much time. You're probably better off searching the forum for "AWD" and go from there.

Meh I'll take your word for it.

Isn't this all a moot point anyway? I thought the current line of thinking was that an AWD M5/M6 would be OPTIONAL. I don't know why you'd ever want an M5 or M6 since they're so big and heavy anyway, doesn't seem to be worth the premium over a 550i or 650i M-Sport, but if you were so inclined to get one, I thought you'd be given the option of RWD or AWD (the latter if you feel as though your car isn't heavy enough in RWD configuration).

[MalibuBimmer]

Speaking of big and bulky 6ers, yesterday I parked my i8 next to a B6 and drooled at it. When I came back from shopping, so had the owner of the B6 who was walking around my car with his wife and drooling at my i8.

Luckily, the drooling was figurative.

[W///]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I'm sorry, but this is one of the worst arguments against AWD that I can imagine. Basically, it boils down to: "AWD makes the road holding so competent that you'll be tempted to drive like a hoon." That's like blaming the gun for shooting deaths (which plenty of people do, I guess). I just can't get on board for that.

IMO, the arguments for/against AWD all come down to what you want out of the car. AWD is unquestionably an advantage as HP increases with respect to road holding capabilities. If your goal is to go-fast around a track, look no further than the Nissan GTR to prove how effective AWD can be. However, if you are more focused on the *experience* of going around a track (slow or fast), then RWD is what you want.

The argument that you "don't need AWD because it's too fast for the road" is a dangerous line of reasoning, because it requires a value judgement to be made. You draw the line at a modified AWD Audi, but what happens when someone else draws the line at a V6 Maxima? I'm not even willing to enter in to that debate.

Having said that, I'm a little disappointed at where the 5 and 6-series M-cars have ended up. The mere fact that they need AWD to remain competitive speaks volumes about what the cars have become. I'm not sure that's a problem anyone can solve though. You can't very well make the 5-series an E28 again. So if the 5er keeps headed down the path its on, I don't see how BMW can avoid going AWD. My solution is to never own an M5

M5/6 don't do much for me anyway, so I don't really care if they come with AWD. They probably need to though. I drove an M6 at the Performance Center and pretty much all it did when you came out of the corners was flash the traction control at you.

Here's my take: The M5/6 have gotten so big that back 15-20 years ago, they might as well have been M7's. AWD on those cars (optional preferably) makes sense. Hell an F80 is probably the size of an E28 these days, with so much more power. That I would argue doesn't need AWD (yet).

What's my point? As long as you keep AWD (again optional) on those big land yachts, and leave the cars like the M2/3/4 RWD, then I'm happy.

[PRican//M614]

Make it that you can go into the awd when you need it. At the touch of a switch..... I wish my M6 was all wheel drive. I like driving in the snow....

[neliconcept]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

I don't think you need to have had it.......

However, I had a mildly tuned Audi Quattro for 2 weeks about 20 years ago........and got shot of it quickly, as it was just a stupid car for the road......it just gave you a false sense of security, whereby you just 'thought' you were a better driver than you were, and when it was going to go horribly wrong (as it would have eventually) it was going to be a VERY high speed ending......

Not for me.

My next door neighbour has a Audi RS3 and drives it like a dangerous lunatic, because, in his words, 'It's four wheel drive innit, so I can drive faster and not crash"

Muppet.


This is the only reason for needing awd

So you drove a car 20 years ago with 20 year old technology from a front wheel drive biased car and that is your take away?

Right...

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by W///

As long as you keep AWD (again optional) on those big land yachts, and leave the cars like the M2/3/4 RWD, then I'm happy.

Yes thank you. My thoughts exactly.

[bimmerj]

Originally Posted by Revcrazy

There is simply no passion in BMW anymore like Porsche, Ferrari and a couple others have. They are simply about a business case and churning out as many cars as possible. I do think AWD is a good option on these new M cars because they are handfuls at the limit and down put power down well. Too bad xdrive isn't nearly an equal to Quattro.

Just curious. How did you come up with this conclusion?

[PRican//M614]

Im in New York and as you all know it has been snowing for weeks. On and off, its just aweful weather and thats okay bc I have a 4matic E350 and a 15 F15 3.5i M sport.....But as the storms come and go my 128k M6 2014 imperial Blue w Silverstone interior and a Dinan Stage 1......... sits and sits bc I moved it reverse as my nieghbors watched and could not move it anymore bc all that happened is tires skidding in the snow. Not tgat I give a shit what my nieghbors think. But I could hear them saying this dummy buys a 128k car and cant move it in the snow...