[B777flyboy]

Originally Posted by danniexi

strict government regulations deem it necessary to meet fuel economy standards.

turbo cars have lag + sub-par throttle response (as good as the S55 is) compared to NA engines. Then again, BMW could always go with their 4-pot turbo + batteries =lighter weight engine with all of the benefits of torque-y turbo goodness and the batteries to give immediate throttle response + instantaneous torque with amazing fuel efficiency. On top of that, going back to a 4-cylinder would be a nice homage to the E30... IF they can get the weight of the car down even further.

That's exactly the problem. Government sniffing their nose where it shouldn't be.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It is unlikely at this point that BMW will invest in a new six cylinder engine family with greater than 3L displacement. So, if there is going to be a 4L engine, it will almost certainly be a V8 (like Mercedes and Audi have).

Also BMW has stated in the past that they are targeting up to 200hp/L for their turbocharged engines. In fact, there was a dual motor + I4 eDrive concept from over a year ago that made a reported 670hp:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/895...em-gets-670bhp

If we eventually see something like this combined with the aforementioned I6, over 1000hp is theorectically possible in future evolutions of the technology. Naturally, this puts the long term need for the V8 in peril. It is a not a question of if, but of how rapidly this will play out.

I would simply alter the stroke of the current cylinder formula to achieve the 4L configuration. It would be an M-bespoke solution.

I agree on the end game. Sadly, I think that sporting V8, V10, and V12 engines will only be available in ultra-high end vehicles when all is said and done.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I would simply alter the stroke of the current cylinder formula to achieve the 4L configuration. It would be an M-bespoke solution.

That's a good idea, but it's actually not a viable solution with the current engine architecture and its 91mm bore center. You would have a ridiculously long stroke not practical for a production engine. This is the reason why there has not been a BMW I6 with more than 3.2L of displacement since they retired the big bore "Senior Six" engine over twenty years ago.

Furthermore, it is no longer possible to justify altering displacement from 0.5L per cylinder anymore with turbocharging now a standard engine feature. Forced induction essentially changes effective engine displacement by putting more air molecules in the same physical space. This is why we are seeing many manufacturers moving toward 2.0L, 3.0L, and 4.0L engines with half liter cylinders.

I agree on the end game. Sadly, I think that sporting V8, V10, and V12 engines will only be available in ultra-high end vehicles when all is said and done.

Yep.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

There are laws of physics and chemistry to consider. Hybrid cars have been in production almost 20 years now and billions spent on battery technology development and none have come close to providing the range and refueling capability of a gasoline/diesel powered internal combustion engine vehicle. 10 more years of tech is not going to bring a backup wallet-sized battery for an automobile.

Data storage and energy storage are two completely different technologies with entirely different engineering principles applied to them. They don't scale the same.

I believe this thinking is limited by our current realities. I, on the other hand, believe in the impossible. Just because we can not perceive it today, does not mean we are not capable of doing it tomorrow.

Hold my beer and watch.

#becausescience

[Fraggy]

Its only inevitable because they say so. The same is true of 4 wheel drive M cars.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

I believe this thinking is limited by our current realities. I, on the other hand, believe in the impossible. Just because we can not perceive it today, does not mean we are not capable of doing it tomorrow.

Hold my beer and watch.

#becausescience

Just because time progresses doesn't mean the laws of physics and chemistry change and allow the impossible to happen. Some things are just not physically possible. It is obvious that our understanding of the physical world gets better over time and technology advances, but all things have limits. It is not poor thinking to understand there are limits; it is actually precise thinking and not chasing and idea down a rabbit hole. And technology always comes with a price, and price always drives practical advancement of technology, especially when it comes to commercial products.

And I don't hold anyone's beer, but thanks for the offer.

[kooper]

I kind of suspect -expect to a degree- that BMW has tested all of this quite extensively already.

If you look at the messages that came from BMW lately, the products and tech they've released, and what they're teasing us with, all signs point to M cars going electric in some way or another.
ICE engines to be phased out in a decade? Carbon fibre being used extensively in construction? 600Bhp limit (take note, they never specified if this figure is for engines only, or combined power output)? Talk of M cars going 4WD?

Now, if looking at all of those things, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if the next M5 and M6 come out with a turboed I6 complimented by electric drive for a combined output in the 650 to 700Bhp region, the next M3/ M4 sporting an I4, also with electric drive for a combined 450 to 500Bhp, and the next 1M/ M2 perhaps going I3?
If all of them have electric drive going to at least 2 wheels (the rears in the 1M's case at least and maybe the M2, with everything else sending electric to the fronts), that's probably the only next logical step, if they weren't playing a massive prank on all of us with their plans to phase out ICE completely.
Yes, electric drive will mean more weight, but it will likely also mean CF used liberally in all next generations.

I have to add as well, I think the above -if it turns out to be anywhere near accurate- will only apply to single generations. After that? Who knows, hydrogen fuel cells everywhere?

Whatever the case might be, now would be a good time to open up your M car's bonnet (if you have one) and give that engine a big hug. They're going bye-bye.

[SCOTT26]

When BMW introduce eAxle technology it will be a piece to complete a larger puzzle to cement the future...watch this space...

A refresher on Power eDrive.
The idea behind the new plug-in petrol-electric hybrid Power eDrive system is to provide a scaleable basis for BMW‘s future performance and upper luxury car needs.

The German car maker isn’t pretending the complex arrangement is going to replace the potent 552bhp twin-turbocharged 4.4-litre V8 direct injection petrol engine in the BMW M5 any time soon.

However, it does concede electrification is set to play an important role, both in achieving the sort of performance and range customers have come to expect from traditional combustion engines and at the same time fulfilling ever-stricter fuel consumption and emission regulations.

Right now, it says the Power eDrive system can be adapted to generate anything from 250bhp all the way up to 650bhp, as sampled here.

As an indication of where the efforts of BMW’s concept driveline engineers are focused with Power eDrive, the otherwise innocuous-looking 5-series GT xDrive in which the initial prototype system is installed is described to us as “the Tesla-killer”. We take a passenger seat and ready ourselves to ride shotgun around the German company’s vast Miramas test track in southern France.

From rest in the pit lane, the BMW test driver pushes the throttle against its backstop and we’re thrust onto the circuit with truly astonishing force. With the two electric motors channelling their reserves to all four wheels, acceleration is brutal.

The delivery of torque is instant, and it is sufficient to induce momentary wheelspin from all four wheels as we’re furiously propelled up the straight. The only sensation of noise comes from a distant high-pitched whine from the electric motors, the buffeting of wind around the exterior mirror housings and the roar of tyres across the Tarmac. That is until until the four-cylinder petrol engine fires to further boost the remarkable performance and also act as a generator to produce electricity, which is stored on board.

BMW won’t say exactly how much shove is on offer, suggesting only that it is “well into four figures” on the Newton metre (Nm) scale. As a point of reference, the recently unveiled performance variant of the Tesla Model S, the so-called 85kWh, possesses a mighty 931Nm – or some 687lb ft of torque. So the BMW prototype is not exactly lacking.

Make no mistake, this is a very heavy car. It carries three powerplants and a battery roughly twice the size of that found in more conventional plug-in petrol-electric hybrids. However, its ability to gather speed in a straight line is nothing short of sensational. Subjectively it feels every bit as quick (and then some) as the 3.2sec figure Tesla quotes as the 0-62mph time of the Model S 85kWh.

Before the weight becomes a factor, though, the BMW test driver steps off the throttle on the approach to the first corner and uses the brakes to recuperate electrical energy, allowing the big five-door liftback to roll past the apex before getting back on the power again for another viscous whip of acceleration along the next straight.

Once again, we’re left reeling from the sheer explosiveness of the available performance. That, and the already impressive cohesion evident in the complex driveline. Although it was hastily constructed, the driveline of the 5-series GT xDrive prototype gives the impression of being tremendously well engineered.

BMW won’t be drawn on specifics, but I suspect we haven’t seen the last of Power eDrive. What chances of the German car maker applying a modified version of its new plug-in petrol-electric system to the BMW i8 to create something really special – a centenary birthday gift to itself in 2016, perhaps?

[AlexLou1222]

Give me 700+HP before going electric please...

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I dont want it if it means a 4700lb car

In particular the M5/M6 are far, far too heavy already. As we will already see all wheel drive on these in the next generation - due to the fact that BMW has understood that a rear wheel drive is incapable of dealing with the torque of these cars - they'll get even heavier.

And adding electrification to this, too? No thank you. No one needs cars that are faster in a straight line than the current ones, joy of driving is something else (at least to me).

[matbl]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Inevitable. Which is why BMW are developing Power eDrive.

If only you would get rid of the combustion engine as well...

[ASAP]

How about, make a car that weighs ~ 3500 lbs, uses a hybrid drivetrain and performs and handles as well as a 335i?

This in my opinion is something along the lines of a first step. Using I8 tech, I think its becoming very possible. Keeping things lightweight and the battery charged a long time imho is the absolute priority. Sadly, no one making a performance electric car, is doing that.

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by W///

If you're such a purist, then why are you driving an M car with turbos and EPS? Things change, just saying.

If this new hybrid car offers the same level of performance upgrades the F80 it presents over the E92 I'm all for it.

[W///]

Originally Posted by dmk08

If this new hybrid car offers the same level of performance upgrades the F80 it presents over the E92 I'm all for it.

I don't see how it won't, but lack a manual and complexity would probably rule it out for me. Oh and lack of car fund after the F80 too

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by W///

I don't see how it won't, but lack a manual and complexity would probably rule it out for me. Oh and lack of car fund after the F80 too

Why couldnt it have a manual?

[W///]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Why couldnt it have a manual?

I don't think we'll see hybrid not in the next generation, but the one after that. I just don't know if they'll go through the trouble of adapting a hybrid system with a 6MT. They haven't done so yet, maybe that'll change.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

In particular the M5/M6 are far, far too heavy already. As we will already see all wheel drive on these in the next generation - due to the fact that BMW has understood that a rear wheel drive is incapable of dealing with the torque of these cars - they'll get even heavier.

And adding electrification to this, too? No thank you. No one needs cars that are faster in a straight line than the current ones, joy of driving is something else (at least to me).

IMHO not only M5-6, but also M 2-3-4, sporty cars >1500kg is a little obese I would say.

The joy of dring BMW i.c. M`s is about "Freude am Fahren" that does mean IMHO good cornering ability, agility, power adjusted to proper weight. ( a leighter car does need less HP for same driving fun)

Now for even more heavy elecrical cars this is not good news, how powerfull the may be.

I`m vey anxious how BMW and M will solve this weight problem on future hybrid/electrical M cars.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by sahyoun

How many times do people run into a p90d at a stop light with perfect conditions, and perfect launch/reaction time. This whole electric gimic is such a joke. In terms of overall effiency (resources used to CREATE and operate) electric and gas cars, electric cars arent always first. Theres still a lot of technology left in gasoline cars that WILL raise efficiency. Just look at Koenigsegg's camless engines. At 75 mph the teslas are making around 300hp. Thats why i pulled on a p90d in my fbo 335i on the freeway. Those cars are a joke, no one cares about 0-60 times in the real world. Just take a look at the tesla's dyno: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RESgO9zuTDk/maxresdefault.jpg

Not to mention they cant even complete a nuburgring lap time. Are they quick? yeah, below 70 mph. But they are in no way a performance car, let alone a "fast" car.

Which is why I stated in a STOPLIGHT drag. Nothing can touch them to about 100mph from a standing start. A 335 can't overcome the launch from a deadstop with the amount of torque the Tesla has. At higher speeds, no, the Tesla is nothing special in terms of killer performance.

And look again..the Tesla P85D has completed a lap in 9:05 at the 'ring..
(http://www.autoevolution.com/news/te...deo-98084.html)

Funny how all magazines print the 0-60 times if they are so unimportant to the consumers........

[CalCarNut]

The car will be a 9-series...and a hybrid if Automobile Magazine is anywhere close to being on the story....

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

The most disappointing aspect of this hype is the concept of inevitability itself. Sadly there is a prevalence of thought where people separating themselves from their money have zero power. The needs and desires of consumers is somehow a non factor.

[N54B30A]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

Which is why I stated in a STOPLIGHT drag. Nothing can touch them to about 100mph from a standing start. A 335 can't overcome the launch from a deadstop with the amount of torque the Tesla has. At higher speeds, no, the Tesla is nothing special in terms of killer performance.

And look again..the Tesla P85D has completed a lap in 9:05 at the 'ring..
(http://www.autoevolution.com/news/te...deo-98084.html)

Funny how all magazines print the 0-60 times if they are so unimportant to the consumers........

Yeah cause half of the people buying model s' just look at 0-60, hp and tq. 0-60 is all the tesla has to offer. Magazines also print 60-0, slaloms, and track times, but I guess thats also unimportant to consumers. And no the car becomes gutless at 75, not 100, 75. Thats a huge difference considering thats just under freeway passing speeds. I dont know about you guys, but i find myself passing someone on a freeway a lot more often than I do racing stoplight to stoplight.

As for the nuburgring lap time, it had to fail a few times before they could get a time a little quicker than an slk 230. With multiple times the power. The tesla gets creamed by every other performance sedan in its class, in just about every category aside from 0-60. What's the point of all this performance and acceleration if its utterly useless in performance applications aside from a drag?

[dragonsi]

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

Which is why I stated in a STOPLIGHT drag. Nothing can touch them to about 100mph from a standing start. A 335 can't overcome the launch from a deadstop with the amount of torque the Tesla has. At higher speeds, no, the Tesla is nothing special in terms of killer performance.

And look again..the Tesla P85D has completed a lap in 9:05 at the 'ring..
(http://www.autoevolution.com/news/te...deo-98084.html)

Funny how all magazines print the 0-60 times if they are so unimportant to the consumers........

First time seeing the lap time on the P85D, gives me a sigh of relief that an all electric performance car still has quite a ways to go.