[9krpmrx8]

Well personally I think all the "BMW's don't handle anymore, the steering is numb" talk is non sense. I also own a Turbocharged Mazda RX-8 and for the money you cannot get a better handling or better braking car. I have also driven E46 M3's and a few E30's, E34's, vettes, owned a track built CRX, etc.

And guess what? My 2011 335i with it's current mods handles just as well as any of those on the street and in the twisties, the RX-8 is the more tossable and would make more sense on track but not that much better on a fast track and which one was faster would really depend on the driver. As for steering, the EPS in my RX-8 is not so much batter than my 335i.

A lot of this is subjective but exaggerated IMO. The only downside to the newer cars is size and weight. And for 95% of buyers that doesn't matter much.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

My 2011 335i with it's current mods...

And there in lies the problem.

C&D is not in the business of reviewing MODIFIED BMWs. There are other magazines out there for that. Stock for stock, BMWs produced in the last few years just haven't been able to stay ahead. Competition has caught up and surpassed them, and if you need to modify a BMW to make it handle as well as competition, well, you might as well just buy the competition.

Cars you listed in your post, the E30s, the E34s, they were the BEST cars in their category in their respective eras, but no, they don't hold a candle to today's BMWs in terms of comfort, power, and handling. But they BLEW the competition out of the water. Absolutely obliterated them. And they rewarded their owners with uncompromising handling and a unique experience from the driver's perspective, without sinking in thousands in modifications...Straight from the factory in Munich (or wherever they built them back then).

So yeah. It's great that your modified 2011 335i handles great. I can put enough $$$ into any Chevy to make it handle great too. The question is, WHY should that same Chevy handle BETTER than today's BMW 3 series (or any BMW for that matter) for less straight out of the factory?

That, is why that long streak of BMW being featured on the C&D top 10 came to an end.

[9krpmrx8]

Well with BMW factory performance parts, my car would handle just as well as it does now, all I have is sways, Bilstein PSS, and good tires. I could just as well have BMW performance parts installed at the dealer when purchased new. I could care less what C&D thinks, they are far from biased opinions.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

Well with BMW factory performance parts, my car would handle just as well as it does now, all I have is sways, Bilstein PSS, and good tires. I could just as well have BMW performance parts installed at the dealer when purchased new. I could care less what C&D thinks, they are far from biased opinions.

I agree that Magazine opinions should be taken with a grain of salt but the new BMW's out of the box are rather numb when compared to previous models but on their own right are not the worst thing out there like some people make it out to be. Drive a 1M and then drive an M2 and it is extremely apparent. Both cars are great but you can not argue the 1M is a much more connected experience.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

Well with BMW factory performance parts, my car would handle just as well as it does now, all I have is sways, Bilstein PSS, and good tires. I could just as well have BMW performance parts installed at the dealer when purchased new. I could care less what C&D thinks, they are far from biased opinions.

First: Stop it with mods. General-interest mags don't care, and Joe Schmo prospective car buyer doesn't care.

Second: If you could care less what C&D thinks, why are you posting in this thread?

Finally: 'far from biased opinions' -- Wha-waaa? Opinions are biased by definition. What exactly are the alternate kind of opinions you're referring to -- (or: Proofread yo' self, son!)

[Obioban]

In the 70s-early 2000s, every car (not just M cars, special editions, M sports, whatever) BMW drove well. They weren't all fast, but they all had excellent communication, great throttle response, predicable power output, handling and braking in excess of their power, and a good driving position/cockpit. This remained true for decades. To this day, one of my favorite cars to hammer on a back road remains my mom's e46 325i wagon (including compared to my e46 M3 wagon). It's not fast, but everything is harmonious and balanced.

Starting in the mid 2000s, the above became only true of M cars. Turbos killed the awesome engines, runflats (and the bushings that hid their harshness) killed the handling and feedback.

Starting in the 2010s, it became no longer true of the M cars, either.

In the intervening years, as BMW has gotten worse, much of their competition has dramatically stepped up their game. The American car companies are making some seriously nicely driving cars these days, with engines to match (sadly their ergonomics/materials still suck). The Alfa has the chassis a modern BMW would have, had they stayed the course (sadly seemingly with traditional Italian reliability). Mercedes is better at being Mercedes than they have in a long time.

At this point, almost everything BMW is pretty shit to drive. Terrible steering feel, bad throttle response (good for turbo engines is still bad compared to their NA engines of the past), engines that favor torque over being revved out, transmissions that value automation over involvement, clusters that value gimmicks over clarity, dashboards that value me too features over simplicity, chassis targeting autopilot over involvement, etc. The M2 is certainly their least bad car. But, it's not as good as BMW's of yesteryear were in their day, and there's lots of things about it that are still worse today compared to BMWs of the past.

C&D has remained consistent in what they award and what they value, and it's right in their name-- "driver". BMW's corporate values have changed. They no longer make "The Ultimate Driving Machine". As a result, they are no longer winning awards for it. Nobody has replaced what BMW was. But, BMW has gotten worse enough, and everyone else has gotten better enough, that this result should not be a surprise.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

Well personally I think all the "BMW's don't handle anymore, the steering is numb" talk is non sense. I also own a Turbocharged Mazda RX-8 and for the money you cannot get a better handling or better braking car. I have also driven E46 M3's and a few E30's, E34's, vettes, owned a track built CRX, etc.

And guess what? My 2011 335i with it's current mods handles just as well as any of those on the street and in the twisties, the RX-8 is the more tossable and would make more sense on track but not that much better on a fast track and which one was faster would really depend on the driver. As for steering, the EPS in my RX-8 is not so much batter than my 335i.

A lot of this is subjective but exaggerated IMO. The only downside to the newer cars is size and weight. And for 95% of buyers that doesn't matter much.

Yes, but you have an older BMW that was before the electronic steering in new BMWs and the numbing down of everything that came in the F30 generation. Try a new 3 series and you'll be sorely disappointed.

[seetohey]

I can vouch that my M2's steering feel is absolutely terrible. While there's no denying that the car's handling is great, the feel of the steering (and actually... the wheel's material itself!) are garbage. I don't disagree with C&D's list at all.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

And guess what? My 2011 335i with it's current mods handles just as well as any of those on the street and in the twisties

You're talking about a 2011. My wife's 2013 X1 has far better feel than the current lineup M3, M4 or my 2014 435i. JMHO.

Go out and try a new model.... report back Mr 2011 on the 2017 / 2018 models.

[9krpmrx8]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

You're talking about a 2011. My wife's 2013 X1 has far better feel than the current lineup M3, M4 or my 2014 435i. JMHO.

Go out and try a new model.... report back Mr 2011 on the 2017 / 2018 models.

Yeah well they have been talking about the lack of handling since the 2012 MY. And I have driven a new 4 series, M240i, etc and the M2 handles great.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

Yeah well they have been talking about the lack of handling since the 2012 MY. And I have driven a new 4 series, M240i, etc and the M2 handles great.

And how does it feel...

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

And how does it feel...

Exactly. There's no denying the M2's chassis handles great, but it's the feel of the steering and shifting that's super rubbery and vague. I love my M2, but this is the truth from my experience.

[9krpmrx8]

Rubbery and vague? Come on now. And BMW has never been the best in terms of manually shifting anyway. But again "feel" is subjective. But overall they are much better cars in almost every way.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

You're talking about a 2011. My wife's 2013 X1 has far better feel than the current lineup M3, M4 or my 2014 435i. JMHO.

Go out and try a new model.... report back Mr 2011 on the 2017 / 2018 models.

You keep saying that like it's a good thing. It's not.

The reason why the X1 seems to have better steering feel is because it's based on a FWD platform. Because there's a lot more hardware to carry up front, it "feels" better because the steering wheel is weighted more.

Back in 2002 BMW had to do the same thing for the 330Xi. Because of all the additional hardware the Xi platform had to carry, the steering feels a lot stiffer and heavier. So heavy that BMW decided to calibrated the rack so that everything feels significantly lighter. For whatever STUPID reason, they decided to apply that same light steering feel to all the 3 liter engine based steering rack. One of the worst things to happen to the E46 because BMW sacrificed steering weight and feel in favor of the Xi and it's additional driveshaft up front.

Since the X1 is based on a front wheel drive platform, the steering naturally has more weight because it carries a lot more heft up front. For some reason BMW thinks backwards and tries to artificially engineer the electronic steering calibration to accommodate AWD and FWD models on their RWD models.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You keep saying that like it's a good thing. It's not.

The reason why the X1 seems to have better steering feel is because it's based on a FWD platform. Because there's a lot more hardware to carry up front, it "feels" better because the steering wheel is weighted more.

Back in 2002 BMW had to do the same thing for the 330Xi. Because of all the additional hardware the Xi platform had to carry, the steering feels a lot stiffer and heavier. So heavy that BMW decided to calibrated the rack so that everything feels significantly lighter. For whatever STUPID reason, they decided to apply that same light steering feel to all the 3 liter engine based steering rack. One of the worst things to happen to the E46 because BMW sacrificed steering weight and feel in favor of the Xi and it's additional driveshaft up front.

Since the X1 is based on a front wheel drive platform, the steering naturally has more weight because it carries a lot more heft up front. For some reason BMW thinks backwards and tries to artificially engineer the electronic steering calibration to accommodate AWD and FWD models on their RWD models.

His 2013 X1 was e90 based-- rwd platform. And it still had HPS, which is why it had better feel than many of its contemporary BMWs. And you could still get it without turbos, for proper throttle response.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

Rubbery and vague? Come on now. And BMW has never been the best in terms of manually shifting anyway. But again "feel" is subjective. But overall they are much better cars in almost every way.

I recommend you go out and drive an MZ4 Coupe. Or an E36 M3. The E36 M3 at one time beat out the Ferraris of its time and was crowned to have the best feeling steering wheel of ALL TIME (up to that point, anyway). The old BMWs with Servotronic and hydraulic steering were legendary for their direct feel and response. The MZ4 Coupe (and roadster, although the coupe has a quicker steering ratio) has a revised version of the E36 M3 steering rack.

I've driven ALL manners of BMWs on track, even up to modern day FXX based chassis. I can tell you this. BMW used to make cars that feels amazing to drive because the steering was one of the most accurate, direct, and responsive racks ever built. The only car that I have ever driven on track that had a rack that rivaled, and bested the rack on my MZ4 Coupe is the Lotus Exige 240S. The Lamborghini Diablo I drove at California Speedway came a close 2nd. That thing had an amazing steering too.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Obioban

His 2013 X1 was e90 based-- rwd platform. And it still had HPS, which is why it had better feel than many of its contemporary BMWs. And you could still get it without turbos, for proper throttle response.

I stand corrected.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by Obioban

In the 70s-early 2000s, every car (not just M cars, special editions, M sports, whatever) BMW drove well. They weren't all fast, but they all had excellent communication, great throttle response, predicable power output, handling and braking in excess of their power, and a good driving position/cockpit. This remained true for decades. To this day, one of my favorite cars to hammer on a back road remains my mom's e46 325i wagon (including compared to my e46 M3 wagon). It's not fast, but everything is harmonious and balanced.

Starting in the mid 2000s, the above became only true of M cars. Turbos killed the awesome engines, runflats (and the bushings that hid their harshness) killed the handling and feedback.

Starting in the 2010s, it became no longer true of the M cars, either.

In the intervening years, as BMW has gotten worse, much of their competition has dramatically stepped up their game. The American car companies are making some seriously nicely driving cars these days, with engines to match (sadly their ergonomics/materials still suck). The Alfa has the chassis a modern BMW would have, had they stayed the course (sadly seemingly with traditional Italian reliability). Mercedes is better at being Mercedes than they have in a long time.

At this point, almost everything BMW is pretty shit to drive. Terrible steering feel, bad throttle response (good for turbo engines is still bad compared to their NA engines of the past), engines that favor torque over being revved out, transmissions that value automation over involvement, clusters that value gimmicks over clarity, dashboards that value me too features over simplicity, chassis targeting autopilot over involvement, etc. The M2 is certainly their least bad car. But, it's not as good as BMW's of yesteryear were in their day, and there's lots of things about it that are still worse today compared to BMWs of the past.

C&D has remained consistent in what they award and what they value, and it's right in their name-- "driver". BMW's corporate values have changed. They no longer make "The Ultimate Driving Machine". As a result, they are no longer winning awards for it. Nobody has replaced what BMW was. But, BMW has gotten worse enough, and everyone else has gotten better enough, that this result should not be a surprise.

I wish I didn't have to agree but there is too much truth in your post. Well put.

[quiksi]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I wish I didn't have to agree but there is too much truth in your post. Well put.

BMW no longer aligns with what I'm looking for in a vehicle purchase, and thus my first BMW will also likely be my last. If I were to buy a performance car today it'd be a Ford, GM or Porsche product.

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

I wish I didn't have to agree but there is too much truth in your post. Well put.

Yup, I also wish I didn't have to agree with it but it's a very well put post and I agree with everything in it. As a former E46 M3 owner, I can say that was when driving feel still mattered to BMW. I probably would have kept it if it wasn't for the subframe being a potential ticking bomb and some random electrical gremlins that would pop up.
I like the characterization of the M2 as BMW's current least bad car lol, so true. They designed a well balanced handling car with an alright engine, decent looks, for approximately the size of the former E46s. I still like it (I bought one), but I think the nicest thing I can say about the "feel" is that it probably was an afterthought rather than a design principle.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by seetohey

Exactly. There's no denying the M2's chassis handles great, but it's the feel of the steering and shifting that's super rubbery and vague. I love my M2, but this is the truth from my experience.

I've been behind the wheel of the M2 a few times, including lapping the nurburgring nordschleife. Each time it feels precise, nimble and a capable car. But that steering feels awkward. I can't feel it and apply too much or too little steering and have to correct mid corner. There is no feeling at all. I drove at a slower pace through the corners at the nurburgring because I didn't know how much input I needed without worrying about breaking the tires loose.

I guess if you drive it enough and get used to it, you can know it by memory. But based on steering feedback - there isn't any.

[allmotor_2000]

Originally Posted by vinylengraver

If you watch those two promotional videos in sequence, you will know why this is no longer the car company it used to be.
They are both for the 1series. The "old" and the "new"

I like this....

Driving is going from real driving to a video game!