[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

This says it better than I possibly could;
https://www.vitsoe.com/us/about/good-design

This is literally what BMW design team ought to post on the wall. Alas, it's unlikely to happen until sales statistics will cause the chief designer to be replaced.

[440i6MT]

When will the grille defenders understand that it's the sum of all the changes that we dislike? It's not the grille in particular, but that is the easiest and most glaring sticking point.
It's not that every generation changes drastically. I bet people didn't like the f-series hood line or the turbocharged options, but we're talking evolution vs. revolution.

Evolution is important.
Revolution is (typically) destructive.

My 2 cents.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by 440i6MT

When will the grille defenders understand that it's the sum of all the changes that we dislike? It's not the grille in particular, but that is the easiest and most glaring sticking point.
It's not that every generation changes drastically. I bet people didn't like the f-series hood line or the turbocharged options, but we're talking evolution vs. revolution.

Evolution is important.
Revolution is (typically) destructive.

My 2 cents.

I don't like the new designs but I have no problem with revolution. Just give me an attractive version, not the bloated, fat version now being designed.

[classj]

Change should not be for the sake of change.

The start/stop button being moved to the console is a great example.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by classj

Change should not be for the sake of change.

The start/stop button being moved to the console is a great example.

Don't forget trends in the industry. Designers are also looking over their shoulders, to what other brands are featuring.

Customers are also looking to see if manufacturers are keeping up with the latest gizmos across the marques.

We see it here on the forum. More than a hint of impatience if BMW are a few months late with applying the latest connectivity to apps, etc.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Don't forget trends in the industry. Designers are also looking over their shoulders, to what other brands are featuring.

Customers are also looking to see if manufacturers are keeping up with the latest gizmos across the marques.

We see it here on the forum. More than a hint of impatience if BMW are a few months late with applying the latest connectivity to apps, etc.

Yes indeed. All car manufacturers were going to the mongo grills. I was happy when BMW was resisting but they finally gave into the group think and built some of their own

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by snareman

Yes indeed. All car manufacturers were going to the mongo grills. I was happy when BMW was resisting but they finally gave into the group think and built some of their own

For many of us who dislike the new grilles, it is not just the size...it is the shape. For example, look at the picture on this website:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...n-test-review/

The Caddy in the picture looks like a beast I would like to drive; the BMW looks fat and more like prey than a predator.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

For many of us who dislike the new grilles, it is not just the size...it is the shape. For example, look at the picture on this website:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...n-test-review/

The Caddy in the picture looks like a beast I would like to drive; the BMW looks fat and more like prey than a predator.

Hey brother so design and marketing is not your forte. You shouldn’t beat yourself up over it.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

The Caddy in the picture looks like a beast I would like to drive; the BMW looks fat and more like prey than a predator.

Looking at it from a life influenced by European/UK design, I sense we have different views across the pond. For me, the BMW has the road presence, the Caddy would take some getting used to. I find the front far too messy.

Perhaps our different motoring heritage, (Europe vs. US), is why the US forum members seem to find the BMW G80 grilles more 'challenging' than I sense over here.

[m630]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Hey brother so design and marketing is not your forte. You shouldn’t beat yourself up over it.

Stop trolling already, it’s tiring and you’ve been put on notice.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by m630

Stop trolling already, it’s tiring and you’ve been put on notice.

Why are you threatening me? He said the design was ugly and the vast majority of car buying people disagree with him and Sales prove that. That’s not trolling that stating facts. I’m sorry that you feel stating facts is trolling. It’s interesting that you didn’t tell him to stop trolling.

I’d like to know, from you personally, why continually coming in to the G80 forum and saying that the car is ugly is not trolling? That seems to be perfectly acceptable to you. You didn’t call out the anyone else out threaten them with “notice’. Yet when I say he’s wrong I’m trolling?

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I’d like to know, from you personally, why continually coming in to the G80 forum and saying that the car is ugly is not trolling?

This particular thread is in the General BMW News and Cars discussion, not specific to G80. I had a quick cursory look at the first page of his post history as common courtesy just to ensure I'm not talking out of my a** and seems mostly confined to the Universal forums like this and maybe his X4M forums.

If he is the only one talking about the ugly nose and what a narcissist Dukec is, sure your point is valid. But it seems to be the opposite in this thread.

If you like your car, more power to you, you really don't need to convince everybody else. BMW will continue to sell record numbers because that's just how the market is going.

[Jashue]

To those that continually hammer home the argument that sales prove the popularity of the new design— I have to mention that popularity need not be equated with virtue. McDonalds sells an awful lot of hamburgers but that does not make them good. In fact, the McDonalds analogy underscores what I consider to be a fact: people (generally speaking) don’t have a particularly strong sense of what constitutes aesthetic beauty. This is true across the board— in any realm where which design is of paramount importance. In any era we see the masses embracing crappy music, crappy food, crappy art and crappy fashion (and on and on). And while I mention fashion— perhaps Dukec should learn the difference between fashion and STYLE. Fashion scratches a particular itch, and a short term one at that. Fashion trends come and go and most fade into the dustbin of history. We occasionally look at those old trends and sometimes have to acknowledge that we were sheepishly caught up in them, and sometimes we pat our selves on the back as we recall that we “knew better” at the time. No one is fully immune.

Well it seems Dukec is going for the score of that short term itch. In his profession, he really should know better. As he tries to identify with FASHION designers like Lagerfeld he says stuff like “Good design is not about pretty or ugly.” Well as a fashion designer, he could perhaps get away with that; he could come up with a hideous scarf, arrogantly declare it a modern art masterpiece and everyone would applaud and move on to the next season. But shouldn’t he hold automotive art to a higher standard? The latest designs show the manifestation of his ego rather than a reverence for style. They will not age well.

Perhaps the bean-counters at BMW have this figured out? A bunch of people will get that itch scratched and move on after three or four years just when the next itch comes. This will make them money, but it is shortsighted. The cost will be (and this will happen over time) their reputation as a company known for pumping out timeless beauty. Once this integrity is compromised it could be gone forever. Some of us see that, and that’s why we’re so upset.

So stop coming at me with the “sales are good” bullshit argument. Stop being so damn shallow.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Jashue

To those that continually hammer home the argument that sales prove the popularity of the new design— I have to mention that popularity need not be equated with virtue. McDonalds sells an awful lot of hamburgers but that does not make them good. In fact, the McDonalds analogy underscores what I consider to be a fact: people (generally speaking) don’t have a particularly strong sense of what constitutes aesthetic beauty. This is true across the board— in any realm where which design is of paramount importance. In any era we see the masses embracing crappy music, crappy food, crappy art and crappy fashion (and on and on). And while I mention fashion— perhaps Dukec should learn the difference between fashion and STYLE. Fashion scratches a particular itch, and a short term one at that. Fashion trends come and go and most fade into the dustbin of history. We occasionally look at those old trends and sometimes have to acknowledge that we were sheepishly caught up in them, and sometimes we pat our selves on the back as we recall that we “knew better” at the time. No one is fully immune.

Well it seems Dukec is going for the score of that short term itch. In his profession, he really should know better. As he tries to identify with FASHION designers like Lagerfeld he says stuff like “Good design is not about pretty or ugly.” Well as a fashion designer, he could perhaps get away with that; he could come up with a hideous scarf, arrogantly declare it a modern art masterpiece and everyone would applaud and move on to the next season. But shouldn’t he hold automotive art to a higher standard? The latest designs show the manifestation of his ego rather than a reverence for style. They will not age well.

Perhaps the bean-counters at BMW have this figured out? A bunch of people will get that itch scratched and move on after three or four years just when the next itch comes. This will make them money, but it is shortsighted. The cost will be (and this will happen over time) their reputation as a company known for pumping out timeless beauty. Once this integrity is compromised it could be gone forever. Some of us see that, and that’s why we’re so upset.

So stop coming at me with the “sales are good” bullshit argument. Stop being so damn shallow.

We live in COVID times these days and sales are also being skewed due to the semiconductor chip shortage and higher demand these days. BMW has done relatively well to overcome the shortage and Mercedes have not for example. In 2021 and for the first time in 5 years, BMW has outsold Mercedes. That includes all models, not just the beaver-faced ones.

My dealer was trying to get me to sell my F80 for huge premium. We live in interesting times and trying to use sales figure to prove people loving the grilles is just serving an agenda.

[Darth One]

Coming back to this thread after seeing all the reviews of the new 3/4 and now new 2-series, there's a very distinct theme that this is the best -performing generation of BMW yet, and the dynamic issues of the previous gens have been addressed to various degrees.

The more enthusiast-bent reviewers dislike the auto (which I anticipated, but can be avoided by getting manual). Almost everyone hates the heinous looks, which cannot be fixed.

So if we're keeping score, pretty much the only thing standing in our way from getting a great group of cars is the design. If you can live with the looks, or even like it, congrats. There's no other downside.

But on the other hand, there never was any reason to have a downside!! If the design was evolutionary, or more classic, or even revolutionary but not revolting to a large group of people, there would be absolutely no reason NOT to buy a BMW.

To say this a different way - Mr. Dukec has completely let down the rest of the company by creating weakness when there was none. I feel particularly sorry for all those engineers who actually listened to customers and engineered their asses off to build something that seems to blow the doors off the previous cars. And now here we are and the whole discourse is argument about the aesthetics

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

We live in COVID times these days and sales are also being skewed due to the semiconductor chip shortage and higher demand these days. BMW has done relatively well to overcome the shortage and Mercedes have not for example. In 2021 and for the first time in 5 years, BMW has outsold Mercedes. That includes all models, not just the beaver-faced ones.

My dealer was trying to get me to sell my F80 for huge premium. We live in interesting times and trying to use sales figure to prove people loving the grilles is just serving an agenda.

It blows my mind away how little people understand about sales, marketing and what drives people to buy things. Of course emotion can confuse people (especially men) or at least definitely cause an unaware bias in their thinking process. Either way brother people don’t buy things they think are ugly unless they are doing it as an investment like art or some other rare and difficult to get object. Having said this even in these difficult days you would have to be a complete moron to buy an M3 as an investment. Some of you guys are getting desperate. I have bad news for you it’s going to get worse. Wait until the official M numbers come out and it will be right in front of you. I will enjoy those threads as people will have to get in greater detail of their denial than what you wrote.

[classj]

Unfortunately it takes 25 years or so for the chips to fall. Sometimes it happens sooner. Sales numbers are not a real indicator unless the car is a flop.

The Porsche 911 series 996 forever will be remembered for the fried egg headlights and other issues. The value, while coming up, will never be what the 993 or 997 cars will bring.

C3 corvettes are another example. Yes, many people bought them. Their values pale in comparison to the C2 that came before it.

Porsche’s plan to dump a 4 cyl engine in the boxster and cayman as the only option backfired quickly. Dealers were tripping over these cars.

I am not going to even start on some of Chris Bangle’s prizes. Not all of which were bad but some were horrible.

I think we are exiting a golden age of design. From 2013 to 2020 there were a ton of really great cars.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by classj

Unfortunately it takes 25 years or so for the chips to fall. Sometimes it happens sooner. Sales numbers are not a real indicator unless the car is a flop.

The Porsche 911 series 996 forever will be remembered for the fried egg headlights and other issues. The value, while coming up, will never be what the 993 or 997 cars will bring.

C3 corvettes are another example. Yes, many people bought them. Their values pale in comparison to the C2 that came before it.

Porsche’s plan to dump a 4 cyl engine in the boxster and cayman as the only option backfired quickly. Dealers were tripping over these cars.

I am not going to even start on some of Chris Bangle’s prizes. Not all of which were bad but some were horrible.

I think we are exiting a golden age of design. From 2013 to 2020 there were a ton of really great cars.

Ok so 2+2= fish




There is no logical way to respond since logic and reality left this discussion long ago or more then likely was never a part of it. Discussions based off emotion alone are just too irrational and irritating. In the end I’m the fool here because I’m basing my thoughts and comments on reality when the discussion is really based on emotion and feelings and always has been from the beginning, long before I entered it and long before we saw the outcome. Now the outcome is here, it doesn’t match the emotion and feelings yet people continue to ignore the outcome and justify that with more emotion and feelings. Holy cow.

[classj]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Ok so 2+2= fish




There is no logical way to respond since logic and reality left this discussion long ago or more then likely was never a part of it. Discussions based off emotion alone are just too irrational and irritating. In the end I’m the fool here because I’m basing my thoughts and comments on reality when the discussion is really based on emotion and feelings and always has been from the beginning, long before I entered it and long before we saw the outcome. Now the outcome is here, it doesn’t match the emotion and feelings yet people continue to ignore the outcome and justify that with more emotion and feelings. Holy cow.

Lol I think I just went cross eyed.

My point essentially is that at some point, a consensus forms. That consensus is not emotional. It’s data driven.

[Draman]

I would say the beaver grill cars are selling great because everything about the cars (aside from the design) is the best the 3/4 have ever been. They are dynamically the best 3/4 BMW has ever made, the interior is the highest quality it's ever been, the performance is the greatest it's ever been; they are truly great cars, let down by truly (subjectively) abysmal styling. People will still buy them because the rest of the car is great, or because they don't really care about anything other than being able to say they have the latest 3/4 series. I suspect a very large portion of buyers fall into that latter category; they don't care how good or bad the car is or how ugly or beautiful it is, they just want to be able to say the have the latest and greatest. Of course there will be plenty of people that like the styling as well; if nothing else, it's aggressive and distinctive.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Draman

I would say the beaver grill cars are selling great because everything about the cars (aside from the design) is the best the 3/4 have ever been. They are dynamically the best 3/4 BMW has ever made, the interior is the highest quality it's ever been, the performance is the greatest it's ever been; they are truly great cars, let down by truly (subjectively) abysmal styling. People will still buy them because the rest of the car is great, or because they don't really care about anything other than being able to say they have the latest 3/4 series. I suspect a very large portion of buyers fall into that latter category; they don't care how good or bad the car is or how ugly or beautiful it is, they just want to be able to say the have the latest and greatest. Of course there will be plenty of people that like the styling as well; if nothing else, it's aggressive and distinctive.

Lol. On initial read I thought you were saying that the rest of the car (excluding the front) was the best three fourths of a car BMW has ever made with the front quarter not being so much.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by classj

Lol I think I just went cross eyed.

My point essentially is that at some point, a consensus forms. That consensus is not emotional. It’s data driven.

We already have almost a year worth of sales data. It’s phenomenal. That’s the point I was making and that some people are trying to dismiss this data by creating emotional and unrealistic explanations to explain it. Just look at Draman wrote above. It’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about.