[stooker]

Originally Posted by Z K

I was in Germany earlier this year and did a road trip. My rental car was a 2017 manual transmission 320D with sport package and cloth seats (you never see cloth seats in BMW in the USA). I felt the car was perfect for long distance driving on the autobahn and I saved a lot in fuel costs as well. I drove over 1500 miles in a week all around Germany and the Nurburgring. The power was lacking but otherwise it was a pleasant car to drive. Definitely much more fun to drive than a regular front wheel drive economy car even with the vague steering. Since I spent most of the time on the autobahn, I didn't care about the steering much at all. In city centers, it was easy to drive through narrow streets and park. I can see why it is so great in Europe for the kind of regular driving people do every day.

Now you understand why BMW can be considered the Toyota of Europe.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Z K

Definitely much more fun to drive than a regular front wheel drive economy car even with the vague steering. Since I spent most of the time on the autobahn, I didn't care about the steering much at all. In city centers, it was easy to drive through narrow streets and park. I can see why it is so great in Europe for the kind of regular driving people do every day.

Pleased someone has a glimpse of where BMW are coming from, for their home market, (Europe).

When we remember the E46 320d set the pattern for the European driver, the E9x and F3x models have simply moved the game on. Positively for most drivers.

The E90 got a lot of criticism over here in the UK for being too harsh and uncomfortable. German suspension tuning for higher speeds, compromised the low speed driving we are stuck with in the UK. BMW more or less fixed it for us, in the F3x models. Of course it won't be to everyone's taste, but if it satisfies the bigger share of the market, BMW must take it on board.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by M2Nebula

Sorry, but the two posts above had already gone there so why not wale on everyone then.

Because I'm trying to do better ... and if I start in on this, my post may very well take up an entire page in this thread and have very, very little to do with automobiles.

(However: Though I LOVE the Kraftwerk post and completely agree, BMW isn't the most influential German car company so it's not really an appropriate match ... )

:: Stop it, critic side. STOP IT! BACK IN YOUR HOLE! ::

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Pleased someone has a glimpse of where BMW are coming from, for their home market, (Europe).

When we remember the E46 320d set the pattern for the European driver, the E9x and F3x models have simply moved the game on. Positively for most drivers.

The E90 got a lot of criticism over here in the UK for being too harsh and uncomfortable. German suspension tuning for higher speeds, compromised the low speed driving we are stuck with in the UK. BMW more or less fixed it for us, in the F3x models. Of course it won't be to everyone's taste, but if it satisfies the bigger share of the market, BMW must take it on board.

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that BMW is achieving their goals of appealing to the masses, bigger market share, and pleasing shareholders (and regulators). I for one, think regular model BMWs maybe should appeal to the masses as they need cash cows to fund special projects and appease shareholders. But I wish at least their M cars produced in lower numbers provide to the fans of the old BMW and give us that feedback that we loved. Much like how Porsche has their cash cows now in the Cayenne,Macan, & Panamera, but they still keep their 911s relatively true to enthusiasts.

[8bit]

Originally Posted by seetohey

Now they have 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,i3,i8,x1,x2,x3,x4,x5,x6,x7. Not to mention the so-called "M" and Alpina models...

The incorporation of Alpina saddens me the most. I always liked the idea of Alpina being out there by itself. Incorporating them into the fold as it were, is nothing more than one upmanship over Mercedes/AMG. We all know Mercedes brought AMG into their family because of BMW Motorsport M cars to start with.

As a side comment I never liked how heavily Alpina was going into automatic cars. Jay Leno even asked a BMW expert if automatics were all they did. I can see how he got that idea. European sports luxury buyers increasingly want automatic, and Alpina have been offering auto versions of most models since 1983, but Mercedes are the automatic company!! By the time the e39 came out Alpina's B10 was auto only and the M5 was manual only.

[Maynard]

Funny thing, Beth was exactly the song I had in mind (that, and EVERYTHING Aerosmith has done since they all got clean/sober).

And more on topic (for those trying to constrain the inner editor) - Porsche has kept it's image sort of intact, but ask anybody who really knew how to drive an air-cooled 911 and I bet they will tell you that the new ones are a 911 in name only. I think Porsche's enduring reputation is an iconoclastic thing - people need a pinnacle sports car brand so much that they will forgive most anything rather than accept that things have changed so much (and their sports cars do still kick butt).

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Funny thing, Beth was exactly the song I had in mind (that, and EVERYTHING Aerosmith has done since they all got clean/sober).

And more on topic (for those trying to constrain the inner editor) - Porsche has kept it's image sort of intact, but ask anybody who really knew how to drive an air-cooled 911 and I bet they will tell you that the new ones are a 911 in name only. I think Porsche's enduring reputation is an iconoclastic thing - people need a pinnacle sports car brand so much that they will forgive most anything rather than accept that things have changed so much (and their sports cars do still kick butt).

That's why I used the word "relatively." Compared with BMW, Porsche is doing better job at least trying to still cater to us. But certainly I agree they are not the same 911s of old.

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by stooker

Now you understand why BMW can be considered the Toyota of Europe.

True except Toyota has completely abandoned performance for only economy and practicality. At least BMW has fast cars, that just lack any sort of feeling/feedback.

Edit: I forgot, they have the 86. I drove one and it's actually pretty remarkably fun for a "slow" car.

[8bit]

I agree, most enthusiasts will tell you the Porsche 911 died in 1998, and all the 911s made since have been produced for status seekers and to fill the pages of car magazines. Cynical but true.

The Toyota 86 is a great car. Apparently the king of drift in Japan asked the company to fit a 2.5 liter motor, so it could be easier to drift. As it is now, you have to "clutch kick" to break power delivery and kick the tail out. Too little power to do it by normal means.

In the olden days BMWs used to oversteer very easily, even when you didn't want them to, lol.

e12 M535i

Classic 5-er

[boostm3]

>>As to why we have to have EPS. Again a European view. Legislation, penalties for manufacturers, if they don't meet emission targets. Costs to users, taxation on CO2 ratings. Cutting emissions by a couple of grams can mean big savings in running cars in Europe.<<

Maybe I'm not understanding, but how does Electronic Power Steering have any effect on emissions?

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by seetohey

True except Toyota has completely abandoned performance for only economy and practicality.

What? Um, no. Toyota has their Toyobaru FRS/86 or whatever it is you want to call it, and they're reviving the BMYota based Supra/Celica or whatever it is you want to call it. They're actually moving in the opposite way, now they have the economy and practicality completely solved, they're looking to make SOME of their product offerings more performance oriented.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Maybe I'm not understanding, but how does Electronic Power Steering have any effect on emissions?

EPS is driven off of electrical current/alternator/battery, while traditional hydraulic power steering is driven off of the engine's main belt. "Parasitic" drag on the engine from a mechanically driven power steering pump vs. under driving the alternator (leading to a much shorter life for alternator, but it will be out of warranty so who gives a flying eff?) to provide power is fraction of a small margin worse, therefore, theoretically a mechanically driven pump will cause a minuscule amount MORE fuel to be burned.

In theory.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by The HACK

What? Um, no. Toyota has their Toyobaru FRS/86 or whatever it is you want to call it, and they're reviving the BMYota based Supra/Celica or whatever it is you want to call it. They're actually moving in the opposite way, now they have the economy and practicality completely solved, they're looking to make SOME of their product offerings more performance oriented.

If you've seen the Toyota Supra test cars before, they are exactly identical to the upcoming BMW Z4. Same engine, transmission, interior down to the same buttons, entertainment system, steering wheel and switch gear. It's basically a rebadged Z4... made in Germany by BMW for Toyota. I hardly call that a Toyota car.

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/06/06/...mws-parts-bin/

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by The HACK

What? Um, no. Toyota has their Toyobaru FRS/86 or whatever it is you want to call it, and they're reviving the BMYota based Supra/Celica or whatever it is you want to call it. They're actually moving in the opposite way, now they have the economy and practicality completely solved, they're looking to make SOME of their product offerings more performance oriented.

I think you missed my edit. I do very much like the 86. As an M2 owner, if only my car had the same feedback/feeling as the 86 but keeping with the balanced chassis and solid power... that'd be ideal.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by The HACK

EPS is driven off of electrical current/alternator/battery, while traditional hydraulic power steering is driven off of the engine's main belt. "Parasitic" drag on the engine from a mechanically driven power steering pump vs. under driving the alternator (leading to a much shorter life for alternator, but it will be out of warranty so who gives a flying eff?) to provide power is fraction of a small margin worse, therefore, theoretically a mechanically driven pump will cause a minuscule amount MORE fuel to be burned.

In theory.

Oh right, I hadnt considered that.> Good point. Im told there are some makes out there that do EPS a far sight better than what BMW put together sans feel and artificially over weighted.

[seetohey]

Originally Posted by Z K

If you've seen the Toyota Supra test cars before, they are exactly identical to the upcoming BMW Z4. Same engine, transmission, interior down to the same buttons, entertainment system, steering wheel and switch gear. It's basically a rebadged Z4... made in Germany by BMW for Toyota. I hardly call that a Toyota car.

That being said I hope it turns out to be the raw car that the MKIV Supras were. Rowing that Getrag transmission was precision and a joy to use (though still not as good as the ones found in DC2 Integras or NA1/NA2 NSXs IMO).

[Z K]

Originally Posted by seetohey

That being said I hope it turns out to be the raw car that the MKIV Supras were. Rowing that Getrag transmission was precision and a joy to use (though still not as good as the ones found in DC2 Integras or NA1/NA2 NSXs IMO).

Nope, Supra is not getting a manual transmission. It will get the BMW 2 liter and 3 liter turbo engines from the 330i and the 340i - only in automatic. The Z4 is available with manual though.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...ngines-planned

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Maybe I'm not understanding, but how does Electronic Power Steering have any effect on emissions?

Lower energy demands. EPS can improve fuel efficiency (compared to HPAS) by up to 5%. Greater fuel efficiency, less emissions.

[seetohey]

Damn. I guess I should have known... seeing how this thread is about modern cars detracting from the enthusiast experience.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by 8bit

I agree, most enthusiasts will tell you the Porsche 911 died in 1998, and all the 911s made since have been produced for status seekers and to fill the pages of car magazines. Cynical but true.

No, most enthusiasts would not say that. Most purists (who would rather live in the past) would say that. Huge, massive, gargantun, oceanic differences between the two.

There's a contingent of photographers who still prefer to use celluloid film, too. Maybe they should both get together and go all steampunk on each other (the photogs preferably with Leicas and Carl Zeiss lenses ... with the odd Minox spy camera thrown in. And using Agfa film, of course.)

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Lower energy demands. EPS can improve fuel efficiency (compared to HPAS) by up to 5%.

No way. That's like saying the hydraulic pump saps up to 5% of power. Where did you get that figure?

At most, it's the difference in maybe .1 mpg. Well within statistical error.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by The HACK

What? Um, no. Toyota has their Toyobaru FRS/86 or whatever it is you want to call it, and they're reviving the BMYota based Supra/Celica or whatever it is you want to call it. They're actually moving in the opposite way, now they have the economy and practicality completely solved, they're looking to make SOME of their product offerings more performance oriented.

seetohey :
It's even considering the transformation of its factory racing outfit, Gazoo, into a global brand name to slot its performance cars into. (Yes, that means there's a chance that the BMYota project will actually be known as the Gazoo Supra.) It's already started calling Toyota Motorsport 'Toyota Gazoo Motorsport' in Europe and committed to keeping the TS050 in WEC next year ...

And don't forget that a Toyota Yaris won the WRC this year. Yes, a Yaris. Japan's already got a hot Yaris on sale that the U.S. likely won't ever get ...

... and what about the U.S.? NASCAR. 'Nuff said.

Toyota abandoning performance ... please. From the company's genesis, Toyota's philosophy with being involved in racing has always revolved around trickle-down tech to its consumer cars. Several times it's pulled out of racing series that its won in dominant fashion because it assessed that it wasn't benefiting consumer tech enough. If you knew anything about racing history, you'd know this, seetohey . Toyota's never abandoned racing or performance. It just uses it differently than most other carmakers.