[eddiehaug]

Without fitting the plug-in hybrid system from the XM, the M5 may not even have existed; the only alternative would have been an all-electric EV

"[An electric M5] needs more than just batteries. You need the whole architecture, the electronics, the high-voltage system... So this was actually the best that we could do right now."

(...) this G90 model was developed under the motto of "Duality." To that end, it couldn't be a specialized product for those who don't care about inner-city emissions rules and their associated taxes. Therefore, BMW aimed for a WLTP-rated CO2 figure of 50g/km, as this falls below certain tax thresholds in some countries. The only way to do that was to make it a PHEV (...)

Full article:
https://carbuzz.com/bmw-m5-weight-figure-unavoidable/

[DocWeatherington]

The current crop of new and upcoming European cars are all European emissions based. As those standards and consumer demands adjust so will what the manufacturers come out with. Everything that is coming out now was pinned out years ago during a different set of circumstances.

We will have to see what develops over the next few years as the push for EV is doing a 180.

[AP]

It may take governments quite a few years yet before they acknowledge the pushback on EVs

Until then the manufacturers will be bullied into making a higher proportion of electric vehicles .
Problem is if they have to produce a certain percent of BEVs and they are not selling , that ratio will be a strangle hold on any PHEV or pure ICE vehicles. They can of course pay the fine and I guess the high end cars may be able to swallow that by simply passing on the consumer, most will not , a £15000 fine per vehicle is a lot of money.

I’m sure this g90 m5 is not what bmw wanted to produce but these are the rules they were bound by and this is the result

Interesting times indeed but not good ones. I suspect we may lose a few manufacturers along the way….

[subterFUSE]

Originally Posted by AP

It may take governments quite a few years yet before they acknowledge the pushback on EVs

Until then the manufacturers will be bullied into making a higher proportion of electric vehicles .

The best thing we can do as consumers is not buy these turd boxes. The more market resistance to the BEV and PHEV mandates, the more likely that governments will have to relent.

[AP]

Yes agree
Well that seem to be happening already. Those that want one have got one (fair enough) but it appears the vast bulk of those are buying because they get a tax incentive to do so

If something needs an incentive, doesn’t that tell you something?

Only a time amount of people are actually buying for themselves suing their own money

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by subterFUSE

The best thing we can do as consumers is not buy these turd boxes. The more market resistance to the BEV and PHEV mandates, the more likely that governments will have to relent.

This is exactly the point and why I have decided not to buy one. I will not put my money behind something that I don’t like. Especially not at this price point. No way. Yes the more resistance to this nonsense the manufacturers will start crying to the governments and they will have no choice but to loosen these absurd rules.

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by AP

Yes agree
Well that seem to be happening already. Those that want one have got one (fair enough) but it appears the vast bulk of those are buying because they get a tax incentive to do so

If something needs an incentive, doesn’t that tell you something?

Only a time amount of people are actually buying for themselves suing their own money

Agreed. Anything that needs a tax incentive to sell is usually not a good product since it can’t stand on its own two feet.

[soulsea]

Best they could do within self imposed parameters chosen by the marketing department that have nothing to do with EU emissions.

They could have easily dedicated the battery to performance instead of electric range the same way other European manufacturers such as Porsche and Ferrari do. Someone in some meeting decided that the M5 buyer cares to drive in electric mode during their commute. Meanwhile MB has a smaller displacement hybrid engine with more power, ferrari gets 830 hp out of their PHEV 6 pot, and the new 911 also nailed it.

This is all on BMW. I can’t even fathom a manufacturer marketed an iconic model under a ‘this is all we got’ mantra. Can’t wait for the commercial: “BMW, the best we can do driving machine”

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by soulsea

Best they could do within self imposed parameters chosen by the marketing department that have nothing to do with EU emissions.

They could have easily dedicated the battery to performance instead of electric range the same way other European manufacturers such as Porsche and Ferrari do. Someone in some meeting decided that the M5 buyer cares to drive in electric mode during their commute. Meanwhile MB has a smaller displacement hybrid engine with more power, ferrari gets 830 hp out of their PHEV 6 pot, and the new 911 also nailed it.

This is all on BMW. I can’t even fathom a manufacturer marketed an iconic model under a ‘this is all we got’ mantra. Can’t wait for the commercial: “BMW, the best we can do driving machine”

All very true. I would love to know why they decided to go the heavy battery range route instead of just enough battery for extra performance route and key the weight to a minimum.

[subterFUSE]

ZF is laying off over 10,000 workers due to poor electric vehicle demand.

https://www.barrons.com/news/german-...-2028-9543441d

[Blue Sky]

Originally Posted by subterFUSE

ZF is laying off over 10,000 workers due to poor electric vehicle demand.

https://www.barrons.com/news/german-auto-supplier-zf-says-to-cut-up-to-14-000-jobs-by-2028-9543441d

That’s an oversimplification. They are laying off because they have a lot of debt from buying TRW and Wabco, and all their sales are down including ICE vehicle components, and not just because EV uptake is slowing.

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by TLK

That’s an oversimplification. They are laying off because they have a lot of debt from buying TRW and Wabco, and all their sales are down including ICE vehicle components, and not just because EV uptake is slowing.

They may be true. But what’s also true is ev uptake across the board is slowing. Especially in America. We don’t want em and don’t care for half baked tech with a very shitty charging infrastructure.

Also there’s a very interesting stat that not alot of people talk about. The one where there’s a very large percentage of current ev owners that plan to buy ice on their next purchase. I don’t remember the percentage but it’s alarmingly high from what I remember reading. I find it funny and ironic. Since I’ve been saying this would happen since the beginning.

[TXSchnee]

Originally Posted by Savoy2001

They may be true. But what’s also true is ev uptake across the board is slowing. Especially in America. We don’t want em and don’t care for half baked tech with a very shitty charging infrastructure.

Also there’s a very interesting stat that not alot of people talk about. The one where there’s a very large percentage of current ev owners that plan to buy ice on their next purchase. I don’t remember the percentage but it’s alarmingly high from what I remember reading. I find it funny and ironic. Since I’ve been saying this would happen since the beginning.

I have bought 3 PHEVs since 2020 ('20 Cayenne E Hybrid, '24 BMW XM, '24 Cayenne S E Hybrid) and one BEV for my daily driver ('23 Taycan Cross Turismo 4S). I don't plan on changing up my daily driver from an EV nor my long distance driver from a PHEV. Plenty of people want EVs, very few can afford one new and dealerships do not want to sell them. https://www.theautopian.com/only-5-o...models-survey/

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by TXSchnee

I have bought 3 PHEVs since 2020 ('20 Cayenne E Hybrid, '24 BMW XM, '24 Cayenne S E Hybrid) and one BEV for my daily driver ('23 Taycan Cross Turismo 4S). I don't plan on changing up my daily driver from an EV nor my long distance driver from a PHEV. Plenty of people want EVs, very few can afford one new and dealerships do not want to sell them. https://www.theautopian.com/only-5-o...models-survey/

You are living at the high end of things. Most regular folk can't afford the cars your playing with and have little to zero interest in EV's. They only serve to complicate their lives and cost more on average. Even the cost was the same. Taking your every day car and making it an ev except for certain use case scenarios makes little sense for average people.

If you ask most people they will tell you they have no time or interest in that nonsense. Thinking about where to charge and for how long is just something not worth it for most. I happen to agree and I can afford the high end stuff and I still have no interest.

When I can get an ev that is going to have a 700-800 mile range and change roughly 80% battery in 10-15 mins then maybe I'll bite. Until then I see no reason and no need to complicate my life. Gas is easy isn't terribly expensive and is very easily accessible. I don't have to think twice if I want to go somewhere anytime for any reason last minute. Nor do I have to plan my trip arpound charging the dam thing.

[subterFUSE]

Originally Posted by TLK

That’s an oversimplification. They are laying off because they have a lot of debt from buying TRW and Wabco, and all their sales are down including ICE vehicle components, and not just because EV uptake is slowing.

Article quote:

"The number of employees in Germany is to be successively reduced by 11,000 to 14,000 from the current level of around 54,000 by 2028," ZF said in a statement.

The decision to significantly reduce the size of its domestic workforce was needed to "respond to the changes in the mobility sector, particularly in the field of electromobility", ZF said.

"Due to strong competition, cost pressure and weak demand for electric vehicles," the restructuring would focus on ZF's electric motors division, the group said.

[Blue Sky]

You need to try looking at multiple articles, because there tends to be anti-EV bias. Just like you have formed your conclusion based mostly on your anti-EV bias.

https://www.ft.com/content/ceefa6bb-...e-04a5c4f6cb09

ZF, which employs about 165,000 people globally, said 12,000 jobs could be lost in a “worst-case scenario”. About 3,000 ZF employees on Wednesday protested against the cuts, taking to the streets of Friedrichshafen in south Germany, where the company has its headquarters.

We want to maintain jobs, but we know that the transformation to e-mobility alone will cost jobs,” ZF said, adding that some electric vehicle components required half the labour to make compared with the combustion engine equivalent.

The transition to EVs has required large investments by Germany’s network of automotive suppliers. However, the companies are seeing margins being hit as the slow uptake of battery-run vehicles has dragged out the transition phase while overall car sales remain historically low.

ZF is in a particularly difficult position, as acquisitions of tech-focused rivals TRW in 2015 and Wabco in 2020 have left it with high debt levels.

The company, which reported net debt of €11.5bn at the end of last June, said the need to rapidly reduce borrowings had been part of its recent decision to close two German production plants. This led to the loss of about 800 jobs, angering unions.

[hufington]

Since EU is heavily pushing EVs and since EVs are the trend for the new generation, manufacturers will be making more of these. It is easier to build EVs as there is no need to incorporate a transmission and complicated ICEs and therefore more Chinese copy-paste manufacturers will enter the game and big manufacturers are going to struggle to compete with those in terms of cost and price. The result will be haphazard solutions like the cars we see today, one of them being the M5.
I resent that a BMW manager is saying "that's the best they can do." It shoes that they do not have the budget to design and manufacture a proper M car and all the cost cutting is taking its toll on the new BMW M cars.

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by hufington

Since EU is heavily pushing EVs and since EVs are the trend for the new generation, manufacturers will be making more of these. It is easier to build EVs as there is no need to incorporate a transmission and complicated ICEs and therefore more Chinese copy-paste manufacturers will enter the game and big manufacturers are going to struggle to compete with those in terms of cost and price. The result will be haphazard solutions like the cars we see today, one of them being the M5.
I resent that a BMW manager is saying "that's the best they can do." It shoes that they do not have the budget to design and manufacture a proper M car and all the cost cutting is taking its toll on the new BMW M cars.

Yes I agree and that's why we need to vote with our wallets. No one is forcing anyone to buy this thing. If it's not what you love then don't buy it. It's as simple as that. My money is good any where I don't need to spend this kind of money on any car let alone one I not in love with. At this end the spectrum there's no need to settle and I won't.

[hufington]

Originally Posted by Savoy2001

Yes I agree and that's why we need to vote with our wallets. No one is forcing anyone to buy this thing. If it's not what you love then don't buy it. It's as simple as that. My money is good any where I don't need to spend this kind of money on any car let alone one I not in love with. At this end the spectrum there's no need to settle and I won't.

The only issue is that the available options are limited. I am shopping for a daily at 125K-150K price level. I have very limited options that tick most of the options that I'd like to have. It's a little easier if one is shopping between 30K-70K as there are more vehicles at that range.

[TXSchnee]

Originally Posted by Savoy2001

You are living at the high end of things. Most regular folk can't afford the cars your playing with and have little to zero interest in EV's. They only serve to complicate their lives and cost more on average. Even the cost was the same. Taking your every day car and making it an ev except for certain use case scenarios makes little sense for average people.

If you ask most people they will tell you they have no time or interest in that nonsense. Thinking about where to charge and for how long is just something not worth it for most. I happen to agree and I can afford the high end stuff and I still have no interest.

When I can get an ev that is going to have a 700-800 mile range and change roughly 80% battery in 10-15 mins then maybe I'll bite. Until then I see no reason and no need to complicate my life. Gas is easy isn't terribly expensive and is very easily accessible. I don't have to think twice if I want to go somewhere anytime for any reason last minute. Nor do I have to plan my trip arpound charging the dam thing.

Your intial claim, that I responded to, is that no one wants an EV, and that people are shifting from EV, back to ICE in large numbers. I am a data point against your assertion (one of many). Second, I stated that most people cannot afford a new EV, reiterating what I said doesn't make a point against my post. Last, you are posting on the M5 forum, a vehicle that starts at $120,000 it is right up near what my EV cost, people who can afford a six figure vehicle can afford to have either 2 cars (an EV and something else) or afford to rent a vehicle for a long road trip, if they cannot afford either of those options, they spent more than they should have.

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by TXSchnee

Your intial claim, that I responded to, is that no one wants an EV, and that people are shifting from EV, back to ICE in large numbers. I am a data point against your assertion (one of many). Second, I stated that most people cannot afford a new EV, reiterating what I said doesn't make a point against my post. Last, you are posting on the M5 forum, a vehicle that starts at $120,000 it is right up near what my EV cost, people who can afford a six figure vehicle can afford to have either 2 cars (an EV and something else) or afford to rent a vehicle for a long road trip, if they cannot afford either of those options, they spent more than they should have.

Ok stop right there. Rent a vehicle for a road trip? Let me get this right. People should buy a 140-150k car and then rent a different car for a road trip because EV's are terrible road trip cars? I get it completely that EV's on a long trip are a hassle and is one of the many reasons I don't want one, but to advocate for a renting a car as the solution? lol ok

People shifting back to ICE from EV's is a real thing. There a good chunk of people that when asked if they would get another ev who have said no. Look it up. You can be a data point against my assertion all you want. Doesn't change anything. Notice I never said all EV owners did i?

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by soulsea

Best they could do within self imposed parameters chosen by the marketing department that have nothing to do with EU emissions.

They could have easily dedicated the battery to performance instead of electric range the same way other European manufacturers such as Porsche and Ferrari do. Someone in some meeting decided that the M5 buyer cares to drive in electric mode during their commute. Meanwhile MB has a smaller displacement hybrid engine with more power, ferrari gets 830 hp out of their PHEV 6 pot, and the new 911 also nailed it.

This is all on BMW. I can’t even fathom a manufacturer marketed an iconic model under a ‘this is all we got’ mantra. Can’t wait for the commercial: “BMW, the best we can do driving machine”

I appreciate your post, but I wanna throw some pushback using your example of Ferrari PHEVs and the 911 "T-hybrid"

the 911 GTS (which is my assumption), run lamba 1, the cleanest version of a ICE tune, it otherwise would have neutered the motor without the electric turbo. Leaves a TON of power for a tuner however. IMHO, I agree with you this is the way to go. But if you want to see Porsche doing hybrid WRONG, look at the shocking weights of v8 / phev combination in the cayenne turbo and Panamera turbo. And for that matter the Bentley / Lamborghini. Im sure if you had an honest interview like you did with the BMW M boss, they'd echo his points.

the pushback;

Ferrari, well they are mildly brilliant in their decisions. That, ev mode, that you and I most likely will never use? Is exactly 16 miles (1 more than the city tax / ban limit to be imposed in EU most countries). Imagine buying a Ferrari you can't take to dinner in your favorite European town? Stockholm, is the latest city banning non-ev cars, but only a 20 black radius right now

Ferrari, doing the absolute bear minimum amount of PHEV integration, got to love it.