[TheBingoBalls]

Car and Driver just posted their review of the Cadillac ATS-V

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...an-test-review

Nothing really to note and pretty much what we all expected:

1. No surprise that the chassis is superior to anything the Germans currently have
2. Typical American interior, not really up there with the Germans
3. Cue continues to frustrate.

It's interesting that when the F8X M3/M4 was released, everyone was bagging on it because of all the changes being made and moving on from old tech to new tech and that the competition would finally leapfrog the M3/M4. In some aspects they have (ATS chassis) but at the end of the day BMW still manages to get it right as an overall package and that's what they've really been known for.

[FogCityM3]

The article aptly states that the Caddy looks ugly and is not ergonomic and pleasing interior wise, but most troublesome is when it is being proclaimed by C&D and other publications that Caddy is thus far the top dog in the chassis and handling department. Even the engine is being hailed as N/A like. If BMW isn't troubled by such statements that would have been unfathomable 5 years ago, then they should be. I really hope things change.

[mojobmw_e90]

Always preferred the v cars over any bmw.. But this new m3 is just crazy badass. After seeing them around town I got a new love for the m3,especially after the fail v8 one

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

The article aptly states that the Caddy looks ugly and is not ergonomic and pleasing interior wise, but most troublesome is when it is being proclaimed by C&D and other publications that Caddy is thus far the top dog in the chassis and handling department. Even the engine is being hailed as N/A like. If BMW isn't troubled by such statements that would have been unfathomable 5 years ago, then they should be. I really hope things change.

I don't necessarily think BMW is troubled by these reviews/statements. Sure it's not at the top of the class in those areas but they still managed to engineer a great chassis (aside from the steering aspect) and engine. I don't think any review has had anything negative to say about the engine and just won an international engine award. As for the chassis, probably a slight downgrade from what we would have expected from BMW but reviews from Chris Harris to Jeremy Clarkson to Car and Driver and Motor Trend have all praised the chassis.

Are these things better than the ATS-V? That's arguable but it's not like BMW totally flopped. They just did it in a way where it would be best applied in a particular way and package.

[StealYourFace]

I had such high hopes for this car, I remember seeing test mules with e90 M3s following close (that GM bought to compare). But it is just so ugly. A regular ATS isn't an awful looking car, but this thing is just sooo busy looking.

[CirrusSR22]

I'm surprised they wouldn't mention how they liked Apple CarPlay and Android auto. The 2016 Cadillacs added both those capabilities to CUE. A Pre production model without that feature?

[AW335TT]

I don't think BMW cares at all, sales numbers speak for them selves and that's all they care about.

[AlterZgo]

This is the first ATS-V test where the car out accelerates the M3. 122 mph in qtr mile is freaking moving. Shockingly fast compared to the prior reported trap speeds of about 114-115 mph

[swanson]

Its amazing to me how, many years ago, the M was lauded for its engine and handling, its reflexes and performance, and now that the competition has bested it in a lot of these categories, now the interior, and materials, and wheel arches makes all the difference. If its not one thing, its another. For cars in this segment, performance is key. The interiors dont sell these cars. You can get a better interior in a higher class car for the same money. Its the performance. But now when the M loses in the categories it used to own, now fanboys cry," well, the interior is nicer; the navigation or heads up display is better......." LOL. The M went from the ultimate drivers car to the ultimate posers car. Sad.

[ethanjoon]

I personally love the styling of the ATS-V

[Lucky13]

ATS and CTS sales aren't even a pimple on BMW's ass. CTS which is one year old is down 41% ytd and ATS was down 21% thru April. If it weren't for the Escalade and XTS SUV's they would shut the entire division down. Nobody gives a shit about Cadillac and it's the new Pontiac, way too little and way too late. You would think with a $60 billion dollar loan GM could sell a luxury car but I guess not. Moving the HQ to New York City is the answer, I would have loved to have heard the snickers in the board room when that one was pitched.

[David70]

10 years ago would never have guessed a Cadillac engine/chassis would even be in the same competition with the M3. Great to have more choices in the category and if I was looking to buy a new M3 would definitely look at the ATS-V. Controls and interior or better chassis/handling? If the two were flipped many of the BMW crowd would immediately say the most important function is how it handles and performs.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by David70

10 years ago would never have guessed a Cadillac engine/chassis would even be in the same competition with the M3. Great to have more choices in the category and if I was looking to buy a new M3 would definitely look at the ATS-V. Controls and interior or better chassis/handling? If the two were flipped many of the BMW crowd would immediately say the most important function is how it handles and performs.

I keep reading these types of comments and people are entitled to their opinion but you have to consider when each car was released. Up until the F8X M3/M4, BMW always had the engine and chassis and guess what? They had everything else as well but no one really considered these things outside of chassis and engine because the rest of the segment lacked these things. You can compare stuff like iDrive and COMAND back when the E9X M3 was released. Is there even a debate? iDrive wasn't the best but was still leaps ahead of COMAND and still is. BMW did and still offers the complete package.

You can say the ATS-V has the best chassis but you need more than that today. These aren't the E46 days where the pinnacle of a car was the chassis and engine. If you want to argue best driving car and nothing else matters, well someone is bound to argue that there are much better driving cars outside of the ATS, M3, C63 and RS5 if you don't care about anything else. What these reviews are basically saying is in driving, the ATS-V is a 10 but pretty much a 5 everywhere else while the M3 and C63 are 9's across the board. Which one would you pick if you had to drop $70k+? My guess is that people will be willing to give up that one point in driving if it means getting more value everywhere else.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

ATS and CTS sales aren't even a pimple on BMW's ass. CTS which is one year old is down 41% ytd and ATS was down 21% thru April. If it weren't for the Escalade and XTS SUV's they would shut the entire division down. Nobody gives a shit about Cadillac and it's the new Pontiac, way too little and way too late. You would think with a $60 billion dollar loan GM could sell a luxury car but I guess not. Moving the HQ to New York City is the answer, I would have loved to have heard the snickers in the board room when that one was pitched.

You could make that argument for every car manufacturer, even BMW. The 3 series, 5 series, and X5 make up the vast majority of BMW's sales. The X1 and X3 are absolutely tanking recently. The Z4 sells poorly. The 6 series is down. By the end of the 1 series run is was was an absolute flop. The Paceman and Countryman are tanking too. As are a few other MINI products.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300092770.html

[OneRib]

The one comment in the article I found a little hypocritical is about the cramped rear seat. How many times do we and the press complain about these cars getting bigger and bigger. Cadillac comes out with a tighter smaller package and C&D starts whining about the backseat. The CTS is there if you want a bigger rear seat.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

You could make that argument for every car manufacturer, even BMW. The 3 series, 5 series, and X5 make up the vast majority of BMW's sales. The X1 and X3 are absolutely tanking recently. The Z4 sells poorly. The 6 series is down. By the end of the 1 series run is was was an absolute flop. The Paceman and Countryman are tanking too. As are a few other MINI products.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...300092770.html

The difference is all those models you've listed from BMWAG, you could make the argument that those are pretty much EOL, specifically MINI - with the only new MINI being the F56, all other MINI's are waiting for the next generation. The CTS and ATS are relatively new cars (2014?) and they're already declining in sales despite the heavy PR.

You're right, every manufacturer has their ups and downs but within the context of this thread and conversation, Cadillac's numbers aren't doing much to get any of the big players sweating.

[FogCityM3]

Amazing times we live in and how things have changed. As others have stated, BMW only cares about aggregate sales of everything, thus has chosen an ultra-segmentation approach to basically have a car for every need. However, watch or read some books on the history of BMW, or watch the movie Adrenalin. So many BMW models, as they were released over 40 years were game-changers and category definers and motorsport and production development and innovation went hand-in-hand. Today, there is nothing game-changing about any product, even the i8 is probably a few years away from really changing any sort of game. The new innovations are what propelled the brand from almost nothing to massive success.

Now the company is not emphasizing all the core principles that got it to the top. This could end up being its fatal flaw over time. I wouldn't view today's sales numbers in aggregate with a lot of complacency. I don't think the very senior managers who basically built BMW and have recently left were complacent either (Biermann to Hyundai !!?!? that guy was an icon and lived, ate, breathed ///M).

Originally Posted by swanson

Its amazing to me how, many years ago, the M was lauded for its engine and handling, its reflexes and performance, and now that the competition has bested it in a lot of these categories, now the interior, and materials, and wheel arches makes all the difference. If its not one thing, its another. For cars in this segment, performance is key. The interiors dont sell these cars. You can get a better interior in a higher class car for the same money. Its the performance. But now when the M loses in the categories it used to own, now fanboys cry," well, the interior is nicer; the navigation or heads up display is better......." LOL. The M went from the ultimate drivers car to the ultimate posers car. Sad.

[Shredicus]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Amazing times we live in and how things have changed. As others have stated, BMW only cares about aggregate sales of everything, thus has chosen an ultra-segmentation approach to basically have a car for every need. However, watch or read some books on the history of BMW, or watch the movie Adrenalin. So many BMW models, as they were released over 40 years were game-changers and category definers and motorsport and production development and innovation went hand-in-hand. Today, there is nothing game-changing about any product, even the i8 is probably a few years away from really changing any sort of game. The new innovations are what propelled the brand from almost nothing to massive success.

Now the company is not emphasizing all the core principles that got it to the top. This could end up being its fatal flaw over time. I wouldn't view today's sales numbers in aggregate with a lot of complacency. I don't think the very senior managers who basically built BMW and have recently left were complacent either (Biermann to Hyundai !!?!? that guy was an icon and lived, ate, breathed ///M).

It'll be interesting to see what Biermann can do with Hyundai's ///M knockoff line/nascent N-performance division. I mean it was a logical move.. N comes after M...

Just look at that logo..


http://jalopnik.com/hyundai-launches...s-j-1480453036

[DocWeatherington]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

This is the first ATS-V test where the car out accelerates the M3. 122 mph in qtr mile is freaking moving. Shockingly fast compared to the prior reported trap speeds of about 114-115 mph

I mentioned this on a different forum but
Flawed Review I smell bulls*it

Either those numbers are wrong 3800 lbs and a 122mph trap @ 12.1 with 469hp or that ATS has a tweaked

Something is fishy ...in those trap speeds

Notice the ATS V coupe review, granted it had an 6speed stick weighed 30lbs less and trap the 1/4 miles 12.6 @ 115 MPH, Motor trend 12.3 @ 114..Now there is the disclaimer that the ground wasn't level, however 7-8mph trap speed increase with a .3 decrease in time?

Food for thought the 2015 C7 Vette Convertible w/ 8 speed Z51.. 3506 lbs, 460hp, traps at 119mph at 12 flat..

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...pe-test-review

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._v_first_test/


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...tomatic-review

[hellrotm]

Maybe they are using to old BMW "Press Tune" trick.

Did C&D actually put the car on the scales or did pull that weight figure out of their rear? Hopefully Motor Trend actually weighs the car and puts in some proper testing.

[swanson]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Maybe they are using to old BMW "Press Tune" trick.

Did C&D actually put the car on the scales or did pull that weight figure out of their rear? Hopefully Motor Trend actually weighs the car and puts in some proper testing.

Motortrend has tested the ATS-V, M3, C63S in a comparo that should be out soon.
https://twitter.com/Chapter_34/statu...297025/photo/1

[TheBingoBalls]

Actually very excited for this comparison to see how the M3 fares from just looking at the spec sheet alone. My guess is that if the ATS-V's chassis is as good as C&D says it is, I don't see how it won't come first. The only way the ATS-V "loses" is if the drive is good and not great and all the areas in lacks in brings down the score.

Prediction:

1. ATS-V
2. M3
3. C63S

(I would be shocked if the M3 came in last)