[capt_and]

My wife and I went to the Ultimate Driving Event hosted by BMW and as it turns out, she has a knack for A/X. Out of our group of over 20 guys, she was the second fastest by a large margin (fastest was an A/X veteran). Even the instructor, who is an M School instructor in Spartanburg told me that she has tons of talent and needs to get seat time. The good news is, she loves it as well.

Here is the problem: We own an old '87 3/4 ton truck, a GTI with a manual, her X3, and my 991. She can't drive the manual, trust me, we tried. The truck clearly won't work and I think it is a bad idea to use the 991 for a beginner especially since she isn't shy about eating a cone or two to hug the line. We looked into getting her a car (which I could also use for DE to start out with) and decided on either a 135i or older Cayman. However, neither one of those cars fit our budget for this little hobby that might fizzle away and we already have 4 vehicles with only a 2 car garage (also no space for a detached garage, I already tried).

That leaves us with using the X3. BMW CCA will allow it to be used at their events but not SCCA due to roll over risk. It seems like many have done well using SUVs but I certainly don't want to risk a roll over.

Does anybody have any experience or wisdom to share on this topic?

Thanks!

[Josh (PA)]

why not dump the x3 for an e91 (last gen 3 series wagon)?

[alex2364]

Get a cheap Miata although I'm not sure how good an auto Miata would be. You can also sell the manual GTI and get one with DSG.

[MightyMouseTech]

Automatic BRZ/FRS with the flappy paddle bullshit? If it has to be automatic, would be a good contender. Amazing handling out of the box, and once you ditch the stock tires, have good grip.

[cxp213]

It's great that you guys are wanting to do more fun things with your cars.

I would say just stick with autocrossing the X3 in clubs that are less strict on the roll-over policies. There should be multiple clubs/ogranizations in your area, other than just BMW or SCCA (PCA, for example).

In case you quickly lose interest, and for your first year, I strongly recommend you just race what you have rather than modding or getting a dedicated car for it. You'll learn just as much for less money and less risk.

Once you get a lot more seat time and better feel for the sport, you will start seeing what cars are good for all-around track/ax duty and what kind of mods are needed to be competitive. Until you get to this point, I say just save your money on just seat time and tires. Unless you have loads of money and/or like to re-do things, take my advice.

[capt_and]

Thanks for the suggestions. The X3 is a 2016 (and her baby) and the GTI is a 2017 with 2.5k miles so we aren't interested in getting rid of them just yet.

The older miatas with an automatic are pretty terrible the last time I drove one. Base on what I read, the auto FRS is painfully slow, 0-60 in 8 seconds so I ruled that one out. Plus, FRS cost is in 135i territory and the 135i is fantastic.

Originally Posted by cxp213

It's great that you guys are wanting to do more fun things with your cars.

I would say just stick with autocrossing the X3 in clubs that are less strict on the roll-over policies. There should be multiple clubs/ogranizations in your area, other than just BMW or SCCA (PCA, for example).

In case you quickly lose interest, and for your first year, I strongly recommend you just race what you have rather than modding or getting a dedicated car for it. You'll learn just as much for less money and less risk.

Once you get a lot more seat time and better feel for the sport, you will start seeing what cars are good for all-around track/ax duty and what kind of mods are needed to be competitive. Until you get to this point, I say just save your money on just seat time and tires. Unless you have loads of money and/or like to re-do things, take my advice.

Would you recommend any suspension work on the X3 to make it more stable? I know BMWCCA will allow SUVs but I am still nervous about rolling it. From what I recall, she has 20x10 rear and 20x9 front wheels but I am not sure if that'll help very much.

[BimmerAg]

Originally Posted by capt_and

Would you recommend any suspension work on the X3 to make it more stable? I know BMWCCA will allow SUVs but I am still nervous about rolling it. From what I recall, she has 20x10 rear and 20x9 front wheels but I am not sure if that'll help very much.

Rollover stability is all about 3 things: CG height, track width, and tire grip.
To prevent rollovers you can reduce the vehicle's height by adding lowering springs, and increase track width with lower offset wheels. Tire grip is important because if grip is low enough, you will slide before you roll, but if you put really sticky tires on it will be more likely to roll before sliding

[ocN55]

Originally Posted by capt_and

Thanks for the suggestions. The X3 is a 2016 (and her baby) and the GTI is a 2017 with 2.5k miles so we aren't interested in getting rid of them just yet.

The older miatas with an automatic are pretty terrible the last time I drove one. Base on what I read, the auto FRS is painfully slow, 0-60 in 8 seconds so I ruled that one out. Plus, FRS cost is in 135i territory and the 135i is fantastic.



Would you recommend any suspension work on the X3 to make it more stable? I know BMWCCA will allow SUVs but I am still nervous about rolling it. From what I recall, she has 20x10 rear and 20x9 front wheels but I am not sure if that'll help very much.

You can get a used 2013-14 FRS for less than the price of a 135i. I personally think that stock v stock, FRS/BRZ would be a better autox car for sure.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by ocN55

You can get a used 2013-14 FRS for less than the price of a 135i. I personally think that stock v stock, FRS/BRZ would be a better autox car for sure.

Agreed. The 1er will be faster in a straight line, but that's about it. AutoX is more about handling than acceleration.

[WhatsADSM]

Auto FRS isn't a bad idea... But you would have to get rid of one of the existing cars. The old truck??

[Dackelone]

Obviously the fastest car for auto crossing would be a RENTAL car!!

No... seriously... at this point you don't know if she will want to do A/Xing a lot or just a few times. Why not rent a car ? Or rent a seat in someone's prep'd racer A/Xer car.

Dack

[Z K]

You can drive about anything at autocross. Why not do it a few times and see if she enjoys it? If you want to get more serious, get a different car.

Although it'll be hard to compare lap times with anything while driving an X3. Most likely it'll be the only X3 there with few similar competitors.

[cxp213]

Originally Posted by capt_and

Thanks for the suggestions. The X3 is a 2016 (and her baby) and the GTI is a 2017 with 2.5k miles so we aren't interested in getting rid of them just yet.

The older miatas with an automatic are pretty terrible the last time I drove one. Base on what I read, the auto FRS is painfully slow, 0-60 in 8 seconds so I ruled that one out. Plus, FRS cost is in 135i territory and the 135i is fantastic.



Would you recommend any suspension work on the X3 to make it more stable? I know BMWCCA will allow SUVs but I am still nervous about rolling it. From what I recall, she has 20x10 rear and 20x9 front wheels but I am not sure if that'll help very much.

I know you already said you tried teaching her but maybe get someone else to teach her and take out the GTI, which would end up being most cost effective, I'd imagine. AX won't harm your car either, other than maybe a few cone scuffs (which comes off for the most part).

Miatas are good cars if you plan on only doing autocross. Even if you only plan on ax, there are plenty of time trials, club trials, hpde, and open track days that will eventually tempt you. When that happens, Miatas won't be as fun as some other cars (at least, I wouldn't think so) since they're so slow outside of ax without heavy modification.

FRS/BRZs are like slow S2000s, lol. They're great at handling but aren't that fast straight line. Similar to Miatas, they're much more suited to ax, but less so for bigger tracks.

edit - Just noticed you're in E TX. Where are you located? I'm in Dallas. We have weekly events (ax, time trials, club trials, hpde, open track days, drifting, etc), just FYI. I've been doing this for quite a while and sometimes instruct at these events, so let me know if you ever feel like venturing out this way!

Originally Posted by BimmerAg

Rollover stability is all about 3 things: CG height, track width, and tire grip.
To prevent rollovers you can reduce the vehicle's height by adding lowering springs, and increase track width with lower offset wheels. Tire grip is important because if grip is low enough, you will slide before you roll, but if you put really sticky tires on it will be more likely to roll before sliding

Agreed.

OP, I'd say keep it stock in the beginning but since your concern is roll-over, there are some simple things you can do to reduce this risk:
-lowering springs to lower center of gravity
-wider track with more aggressive wheel offset
-minimizing body roll with sway bars
-alignment with bit more negative camber

[capt_and]

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I think we have a clear(er) pathway moving forward.. In the original post, I left out one piece of information, we also have a '99 Boxster. I didn't mention it because we were supposed to sell it. But after seeing the responses on here and rennlist, we are going to keep the Boxster and spend some money to get it mechanically sound. We took it out and she actually finds it easier to drive than the GTI, less rev hang so easier to time the the clutch. We were able to get the Boxster for under $5k and it will cost another $4k to get all of the known failure points in the engine addressed. This works out great because I didn't want to sell it in the first place. The only problem now is that BMW CCA won't allow convertibles without a full roll cage. Is this true on A/X or is it only for HPDEs? We are going to use the X3 for the first few events so she can get more comfortable with the manual.

Originally Posted by cxp213

I know you already said you tried teaching her but maybe get someone else to teach her and take out the GTI, which would end up being most cost effective, I'd imagine. AX won't harm your car either, other than maybe a few cone scuffs (which comes off for the most part).

Miatas are good cars if you plan on only doing autocross. Even if you only plan on ax, there are plenty of time trials, club trials, hpde, and open track days that will eventually tempt you. When that happens, Miatas won't be as fun as some other cars (at least, I wouldn't think so) since they're so slow outside of ax without heavy modification.

FRS/BRZs are like slow S2000s, lol. They're great at handling but aren't that fast straight line. Similar to Miatas, they're much more suited to ax, but less so for bigger tracks.

edit - Just noticed you're in E TX. Where are you located? I'm in Dallas. We have weekly events (ax, time trials, club trials, hpde, open track days, drifting, etc), just FYI. I've been doing this for quite a while and sometimes instruct at these events, so let me know if you ever feel like venturing out this way!

OP, I'd say keep it stock in the beginning but since your concern is roll-over, there are some simple things you can do to reduce this risk:
-lowering springs to lower center of gravity
-wider track with more aggressive wheel offset
-minimizing body roll with sway bars
-alignment with bit more negative camber

Since she has wider after market tires, should we swap them out for the OE tires so that there is less grip (slide before flip)? We are planning to use the Boxster in the future so I don't want to spend too much on the X3.

We are just west of Longview and actually go to Dallas frequently. THe plan is actually to be there tomorrow to drop off the Boxster at RAC performance. Please shoot me a PM, I would love to learn more about the weekly events! Since our schedules are all over the place, it is a bit difficult to find events that fit in so if you have weekly events, we would love to learn more.

[cxp213]

For AX, lack of roll cage shouldn't matter, unless it's like that one convertible SUV from Nissan or something -- even then, some local clubs will still probably allow it. For track, this is heavily local chapter/club dependent, so you'll have to contact your chair or point of contact.

No need to change anything on the X3, really. Most don't go fast or aggressive enough to cause even a hint of roll-over as-is. It's actually harder to roll-over vehicles than you'd think, but that it can happen under right conditions is why you just need to be careful. Also, don't worry about tires, it won't make much difference.

Another thing to keep in mind is the type of surface and lot you autocross on. If there are pot holes, curbs, or grass, you need to be aware of how you approach elements around those. Hitting those at the wrong angle (ex. laterally) could cause a roll-over, but course designers are supposed to take all that into consideration so not really your concern unless you're just all over the place (in which case, you'd get an instructor).


I actually work like 10 min from RAC, lol. I'll PM you, but just for those who are curious, check out the below link for all AX events in the Dallas Fort Worth area:
www.dfwautocross.com

[N52UNED]

Have you thought about an Audi A3 or A4? When I lived in Reno NV ... the AX folks were all about them. One kept trying to buy my A3 2.0t. The 6spd auto transmission is pretty darn impressive too. You can pick one up fairly reasonably.

[CirrusSR22]

MINI Cooper. Cheap, light, fun.

[Red Bread]

135i has no mechanical diff, like all non M?s for the last decade or so. Easy pass.

[Chappers 71]

How about a e36 328i or a e46 330i? Both are inexpensive to buy & it wouldn't matter to much if it got damaged

[1MOREMOD]

Hitting light poles in the parking lot?

[eluded]

S2000

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

How about a e36 328i or a e46 330i? Both are inexpensive to buy & it wouldn't matter to much if it got damaged

I second this. Not much money lost if she decides it isn't for her down the road.