auto makers in trouble

ho_grayson · 11-20-2008, 05:04 PM

hi! guys

i dont know it's good for german, japanese car makers and public or not!

here's news:
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- With the prospects of an auto bailout this week all but dead, Democratic leaders said Thursday that Congress would return in December to consider extending a $25 billion lifeline for troubled U.S. automakers if the companies devise a "viable" recovery plan.

apparently, public don't want spend more tax money to save them; however, there will be more 3 million people out of job! nobody knows how much auto makers need to survive! it's a big BLACK WHOLE!

down the road, we might see only german and japanese cars on the street that make more affordable to public!

what do yu think?

noro · 11-20-2008, 05:09 PM

Giving money to a drug addict isn't going to help him fight the addiction, just going to buy him another few days worth of crack. It's the same deal here. Those companies need to fail so that more creative, younger talent within the same company can start something new and interesting and not have all the union/pension obligations that GM Form and Chrysler have.

Don't worry.. every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end.

Strongmad · 11-20-2008, 05:12 PM

First, my inflammatory response, American cars for the most part suck, ergo the big three should go bankrupt due to capitalistic forces.

Now for the real response, if the any or all of the Big 3 go bankrupt and actually stop producing cars, the foreign companies will pick up the slack. Three million people will not be out of a job, they will simply find a better one working for Toyota, Nissan, Hyndai or BMW, all of which have factories in the US.

And simply put, Americans will finally have to stop putting up with the crap that Detroit produces.

chaz58 · 11-20-2008, 05:26 PM

Some interesting biases there.

The problem is caused by a double whammy – rapid rise in gas prices, and a major blow to the economy. I think the car companies could weather one or the other, but not both.

Our addiction to cheap gas encourages us to build and buy cars that can’t be sold many other places. Look at the M3 - 335i crowd here! It is worse for the US auto makers as they build large and/or powerful cars that need cheap gas and large roads – something only the US has (or had until recently). You can drive a smaller fuel efficient car anywhere.

Car makers really need stable gas prices, and ability to get credit for both themselves and for their customers.

I’m not sure why this is caused a bailout – it’s a loan. When this was done 30 years ago to Chrysler, the loan was paid back in 2 years.

kgb1637 · 11-20-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noro

Giving money to a drug addict isn't going to help him fight the addiction, just going to buy him another few days worth of crack. It's the same deal here. Those companies need to fail so that more creative, younger talent within the same company can start something new and interesting and not have all the union/pension obligations that GM Form and Chrysler have.

Don't worry.. every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end.

Couldn't have said it better myself, their void will give Honda, Toyota, and other car companies who make desired and reliable cars a larger share of the market, make them build more plants and thus continue capitalism.

chaz58 · 11-20-2008, 05:27 PM

What planet are you on? That is not even close to being realistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strongmad

Three million people will not be out of a job, they will simply find a better one working for Toyota, Nissan, Hyndai or BMW, all of which have factories in the US.

noro · 11-20-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaz58

I’m not sure why this is caused a bailout – it’s a loan. When this was done 30 years ago to Chrysler, the loan was paid back in 2 years.

I agree with you about misuse of the word bailout.. I guess BMW FS bailed me out when they gave me financing.

I think the key difference now is that many believe that regardless of the loan these companies aren't going to make it.

choopy · 11-20-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noro

Giving money to a drug addict isn't going to help him fight the addiction, just going to buy him another few days worth of crack. It's the same deal here. Those companies need to fail so that more creative, younger talent within the same company can start something new and interesting and not have all the union/pension obligations that GM Form and Chrysler have.

Don't worry.. every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end.

wow, so well put that you've entirely changed my mind on that whole effed up situation. It's got to happen sooner or later..

bsamoul · 11-20-2008, 05:42 PM

The Big 3 did something really stupid yesterday when they begged Congress yesterday. They each took private jets out to DC from Michigan costing each of them probably 20k (that they don't have) each just for that. They could have driven or better yet, taken a COMMERCIAL AIRLINER... it's not like I'd recognize that I was sitting next to the president of General Motors anyway..

ragingclue · 11-20-2008, 05:48 PM

They need to be forced to lean out and compete on their own. It's what capitalism is all about. Not all three of them will go down, and 3 million people will not be jobless. They need to gut their front offices and learn how to build competitive products. Period.

I'm from the Detroit area, and trust me, very few of the cars still come from around there. Thank you NAFTA.

Joonsup · 11-20-2008, 05:55 PM

i read Ford had enough cash reserves to last through 09, but GM could be out of business in a matter of weeks. I only know what I read in the news, but it seems like the congress people who are against it give a stronger reason to not bail them out compared to those who are for it. I'm not sure if this is true but I read that even if they bail them out with the money, it's only prolonging the inevitable of them going out of business... at least for GM unless they change the entire business practice. I kinda agree with those who oppose the bailout in the fact that the bailout money should be going only towards the financial industry such as the banks.

Tag · 11-20-2008, 05:55 PM

Fuck 'em all, let them go down in flames. It's the only way they will make the real change that is needed. There's a reason we all get better after we fail at something; it's because if you care you will try harder and ultimately succeed. They have been fucking up for years and have already received 25 Billion; now they want another 25B? That's what Chapter 11 is for...

Ohh and BTW, everything I said is pure Capitalism and not this Socialist B.S. we're getting into.

bsamoul · 11-20-2008, 06:11 PM

IMO it doesn't really matter to me if GM goes, I have my Chevy Tahoe and I do all the work myself, so I just needed them to build it for me. Now I could care less.

kgb1637 · 11-20-2008, 06:12 PM

There whole business model is wrong, I can't wait to see what they come up with in a few weeks and hopefully fly commercial there.

Saigon · 11-20-2008, 06:12 PM

chapter 11 reorganization. Let these 3 automakers fall. I heard somewhere that 1/10 jobs is from the automakers. We live in a capitalistic society that is normal for people to not "care" for one another, the bigger the better. In this case, the bigger the car, the "mightier we are,"so let this be a lesson to Americans on what they purchase in the near future. I changed my decision upon helping them out, because I had sympathy for the millions of job that is going to be at lost, but at the same time the video of the private airline jets really did change my focus at that point and decided to let them fall. That is just plain selfish when they had questioned the CEO of GM, the reporter/journalist asking him the question really stuck it to him. By viewing his body language, he was dumbstruck and did not have a clue on what to say... Let them fall and burn.

rrosen · 11-20-2008, 06:26 PM

Sadly most people don't really understand the situation. There are many factors but bottom line, this is a very serious issue. On top of that, there are a couple of statements made here that are flat out wrong.

1. US cars are junk: They score higher on the JD Power quality surveys than most foreign cars. Yes, they were bad in the 80s/90s but not today. Drive a Malibu or a Cadillac CTS. You'll be surprised. And most US cars get better gas mileage than the comparable foreign models. (That one surprised me to so I looked it up.)

2. Let them fail, we'll be better off: About 1 in 12 jobs today is related to the auto industry. If you think the recession is bad today, what will it be like when 3 million more people or even more are out of work. Can you say depression.

3. Foreign manufacturers will take up the slack: They can't turn on a dime either. Will take them some time to up production. But then again, given #2, probably won't be necessary. Given the interdependence of the suppliers too, there may not be parts to even build what they do today.

I'm not saying the loans are the right thing or not, I don't know enough to know. But I do know this is a serious problem and we all better hope someone figures out how to resolve it or we as a country will be in a world of hurt.

And if anyone thinks the US can survive as a purely services economy, I'll leave you with these words: Want fries with that?

ho_grayson · 11-20-2008, 06:28 PM

it's very UNFAIR for employee of these 3 auto makers to watch their ceo flying with private jet as companies about to bankrupt. news said it cost 20,000 per trip to new york; that 20,000 could buy a 2009 toyota corona. what the *uck? sadly for their employee!

BMW F22 · 11-20-2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ho_grayson

it's very for UNFAIR to employee of these 3 auto makers to watch their ceo flying with private jet as companies about to bankrupt. news said it cost 20,000 per trip to new york; that 20,000 could buy a 2009 toyota corona. what the *uck? sadly for their employee!

IMO both parties are to be blamed for. I mean union workers don't really care much and always demand higher wages. They are also not efficient (as is the company). Also those executives are "old school" because they are very close-minded. They are making some better cars now but before they just made them without analyzing the benefits. It's not like it happened overnight. They knew it was going down the drain YEARS ago and IMO didn't do much to change that.

Staszek · 11-20-2008, 07:07 PM

Since when does bankruptcy mean out of business? GM will not be closing the doors and walk away it will restructure.

Personally GM going bankrupt is the best thing that could happen to it. It will give them some breathing room and they can get out of there awful labor contracts that they currently have. This is capitalism and they honestly need to learn how to fail and succeed on there own.

As much as the CEO's have there hands in this problem the labor unions are HUGELY at fault. Put it this way when a wrench turner at GM cost $75 an hour (total costs including benefits pension etc) and that same wrench turner at Toyota USA costs $45 an hour we have a major problem.

Also this whole 1-10 people are connected to the auto industry bs is just propaganda they are including everyone that touches a car ie: carwash, independent mechanics etc. Guess what people have cars now they still need to be washed and fixed.

I have no sympathy for GM , the executives, or the over paid union workers especially when its going to be on my dime to bail them out.

Oh and as a side note I think we need this recession so this country starts building real wealth, not fake credit wealth based on their housing.

No one knows how to save anymore, we really don't produce anything. The economy as it is currently is a sham and it has finally been exposed.

742 · 11-20-2008, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staszek

...Oh and as a side note I think we need this recession so this country starts building real wealth, not fake credit wealth based on their housing.

No one knows how to save anymore, we really don't produce anything. The economy as it is currently is a sham and it has finally been exposed.

Good side note

As for the manufacturers; if I were Emperor:

1. Chapter 11.

2. Government provides (or guarantees) debtor in possession financing.

3. The Government gets equity in the new companies, to be sold off within 7 years.

4. All members of the Boards of Directors go. Every one. Court-appointed trustees are put in place to supervise management and the new BODs.

5. There is a plan. It should include bringing the efficient models that both Ford and GM already build in Europe to American plants and the American market.

cliverman · 11-20-2008, 09:21 PM

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...ses/index.html

Here's a line from the Union Workers side...

"....The differences come from retirement and health-care. Detroit automakers pay a lot more per worker-hour because they have more retirees to whom they extend full health-care benefits."

Who in this day and age expects retirement? 401Ks just like everyone else. Freakin' unions were good when they protected the workers but they turned into a crutch.

742 · 11-20-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliverman

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...ses/index.html

Here's a line from the Union Workers side...

"....The differences come from retirement and health-care. Detroit automakers pay a lot more per worker-hour because they have more retirees to whom they extend full health-care benefits."

Who in this day and age expects retirement? 401Ks just like everyone else. Freakin' unions were good when they protected the workers but they turned into a crutch.

NOW is not the issue, THEN retirement was part of the package, and that retirement package was supposed to have been funded while the employees were working.

As an example, my wife works in IT. She could make much more in terms of take home pay working for a beltway bandit, but she works for DoD because the stability and retirement is better. So in 20 years would it be ethical to cancel her retirement benefits?

Freezing the retirement programs is one thing. Taking away credit already earned, and supposedly (and legally required to have been) already paid for by the company is something else.

So who is responsible for underfunding the retirement programs, and why are they not in jail for fraud?

11-20-2008, 05:04 PM	#1
ho_grayson Private First Class 20 Rep 176 Posts Drives: 2008 335i sedan Join Date: May 2008 Location: south surry, B.C. iTrader: (0)	auto makers in trouble hi! guys i dont know it's good for german, japanese car makers and public or not! here's news: NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- With the prospects of an auto bailout this week all but dead, Democratic leaders said Thursday that Congress would return in December to consider extending a $25 billion lifeline for troubled U.S. automakers if the companies devise a "viable" recovery plan. apparently, public don't want spend more tax money to save them; however, there will be more 3 million people out of job! nobody knows how much auto makers need to survive! it's a big BLACK WHOLE! down the road, we might see only german and japanese cars on the street that make more affordable to public! what do yu think?
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11-20-2008, 05:09 PM	#2
noro Colonel 90 Rep 2,707 Posts Drives: '91 M3, '04 E46 ZHP, '72 2002 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boston iTrader: (0)	Giving money to a drug addict isn't going to help him fight the addiction, just going to buy him another few days worth of crack. It's the same deal here. Those companies need to fail so that more creative, younger talent within the same company can start something new and interesting and not have all the union/pension obligations that GM Form and Chrysler have. Don't worry.. every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. __________________ zhpregistry.net - ZHP stats and free classifieds.
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11-20-2008, 05:12 PM	#3
Strongmad Private First Class 13 Rep 139 Posts Drives: 335 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: nonja iTrader: (0)	First, my inflammatory response, American cars for the most part suck, ergo the big three should go bankrupt due to capitalistic forces. Now for the real response, if the any or all of the Big 3 go bankrupt and actually stop producing cars, the foreign companies will pick up the slack. Three million people will not be out of a job, they will simply find a better one working for Toyota, Nissan, Hyndai or BMW, all of which have factories in the US. And simply put, Americans will finally have to stop putting up with the crap that Detroit produces.
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11-20-2008, 05:26 PM	#4
chaz58 Captain 15 Rep 701 Posts Drives: 328iT Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Detroit Burbs iTrader: (0)	Some interesting biases there. The problem is caused by a double whammy – rapid rise in gas prices, and a major blow to the economy. I think the car companies could weather one or the other, but not both. Our addiction to cheap gas encourages us to build and buy cars that can’t be sold many other places. Look at the M3 - 335i crowd here! It is worse for the US auto makers as they build large and/or powerful cars that need cheap gas and large roads – something only the US has (or had until recently). You can drive a smaller fuel efficient car anywhere. Car makers really need stable gas prices, and ability to get credit for both themselves and for their customers. I’m not sure why this is caused a bailout – it’s a loan. When this was done 30 years ago to Chrysler, the loan was paid back in 2 years. __________________ _________________________________________________
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11-20-2008, 05:42 PM	#9
bsamoul Major General 169 Rep 7,433 Posts Drives: E90 325i Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Walnut Creek, California iTrader: (2)	The Big 3 did something really stupid yesterday when they begged Congress yesterday. They each took private jets out to DC from Michigan costing each of them probably 20k (that they don't have) each just for that. They could have driven or better yet, taken a COMMERCIAL AIRLINER... it's not like I'd recognize that I was sitting next to the president of General Motors anyway.. __________________ -Brian 2X 2006 BMW 325i [Electric Red & Mystic Blue] \| ZPP \| V1 \| Rear Fogs \| M3 Lip Spoiler \| EAS RemoteKey \| BMS Powerbox \| Projector90 Headlights w/ LED AE \| LED plate lights \| OEM Blacklines http://www.tech-shine.com
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11-20-2008, 05:48 PM	#10
ragingclue One cam is enough 136 Rep 6,801 Posts Drives: VF Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: mulletville iTrader: (1)	They need to be forced to lean out and compete on their own. It's what capitalism is all about. Not all three of them will go down, and 3 million people will not be jobless. They need to gut their front offices and learn how to build competitive products. Period. I'm from the Detroit area, and trust me, very few of the cars still come from around there. Thank you NAFTA.
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11-20-2008, 05:55 PM	#11
Joonsup Lieutenant General 328 Rep 17,315 Posts Drives: E92 M3, E30 325i Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bay Area iTrader: (8) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 [9.50]	i read Ford had enough cash reserves to last through 09, but GM could be out of business in a matter of weeks. I only know what I read in the news, but it seems like the congress people who are against it give a stronger reason to not bail them out compared to those who are for it. I'm not sure if this is true but I read that even if they bail them out with the money, it's only prolonging the inevitable of them going out of business... at least for GM unless they change the entire business practice. I kinda agree with those who oppose the bailout in the fact that the bailout money should be going only towards the financial industry such as the banks.
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11-20-2008, 05:55 PM	#12
Tag this is the way 20033 Rep 8,955 Posts Drives: N-1 starfighter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Chicago iTrader: (3)	Fuck 'em all, let them go down in flames. It's the only way they will make the real change that is needed. There's a reason we all get better after we fail at something; it's because if you care you will try harder and ultimately succeed. They have been fucking up for years and have already received 25 Billion; now they want another 25B? That's what Chapter 11 is for... Ohh and BTW, everything I said is pure Capitalism and not this Socialist B.S. we're getting into.
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11-20-2008, 06:11 PM	#13
bsamoul Major General 169 Rep 7,433 Posts Drives: E90 325i Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Walnut Creek, California iTrader: (2)	IMO it doesn't really matter to me if GM goes, I have my Chevy Tahoe and I do all the work myself, so I just needed them to build it for me. Now I could care less. __________________ -Brian 2X 2006 BMW 325i [Electric Red & Mystic Blue] \| ZPP \| V1 \| Rear Fogs \| M3 Lip Spoiler \| EAS RemoteKey \| BMS Powerbox \| Projector90 Headlights w/ LED AE \| LED plate lights \| OEM Blacklines http://www.tech-shine.com
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11-20-2008, 06:12 PM	#14
kgb1637 Lieutenant Colonel 21 Rep 1,519 Posts Drives: RS5 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Baltimore, MD iTrader: (0)	There whole business model is wrong, I can't wait to see what they come up with in a few weeks and hopefully fly commercial there.
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11-20-2008, 06:12 PM	#15
Saigon Brigadier General 248 Rep 3,524 Posts Drives: BSM E92 335i Coupe Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SoCal iTrader: (47)	chapter 11 reorganization. Let these 3 automakers fall. I heard somewhere that 1/10 jobs is from the automakers. We live in a capitalistic society that is normal for people to not "care" for one another, the bigger the better. In this case, the bigger the car, the "mightier we are,"so let this be a lesson to Americans on what they purchase in the near future. I changed my decision upon helping them out, because I had sympathy for the millions of job that is going to be at lost, but at the same time the video of the private airline jets really did change my focus at that point and decided to let them fall. That is just plain selfish when they had questioned the CEO of GM, the reporter/journalist asking him the question really stuck it to him. By viewing his body language, he was dumbstruck and did not have a clue on what to say... Let them fall and burn. __________________ 07' Alpine White E93 335i M-Sport \| BMW Performance \| Beige l Piano Black l Sport l Premium l Heated l Navi \| Steptronic l Comfort Access l Logic7 l iPod & USB \|
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11-20-2008, 06:26 PM	#16
rrosen Private First Class 4 Rep 125 Posts Drives: 335i, sparkling graphite Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Silver Spring, MD iTrader: (0)	Sadly most people don't really understand the situation. There are many factors but bottom line, this is a very serious issue. On top of that, there are a couple of statements made here that are flat out wrong. 1. US cars are junk: They score higher on the JD Power quality surveys than most foreign cars. Yes, they were bad in the 80s/90s but not today. Drive a Malibu or a Cadillac CTS. You'll be surprised. And most US cars get better gas mileage than the comparable foreign models. (That one surprised me to so I looked it up.) 2. Let them fail, we'll be better off: About 1 in 12 jobs today is related to the auto industry. If you think the recession is bad today, what will it be like when 3 million more people or even more are out of work. Can you say depression. 3. Foreign manufacturers will take up the slack: They can't turn on a dime either. Will take them some time to up production. But then again, given #2, probably won't be necessary. Given the interdependence of the suppliers too, there may not be parts to even build what they do today. I'm not saying the loans are the right thing or not, I don't know enough to know. But I do know this is a serious problem and we all better hope someone figures out how to resolve it or we as a country will be in a world of hurt. And if anyone thinks the US can survive as a purely services economy, I'll leave you with these words: Want fries with that? __________________ ___________________ Robert
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11-20-2008, 06:28 PM	#17
ho_grayson Private First Class 20 Rep 176 Posts Drives: 2008 335i sedan Join Date: May 2008 Location: south surry, B.C. iTrader: (0)	it's very UNFAIR for employee of these 3 auto makers to watch their ceo flying with private jet as companies about to bankrupt. news said it cost 20,000 per trip to new york; that 20,000 could buy a 2009 toyota corona. what the uck? sadly for their employee! Last edited by ho_grayson; 11-20-2008 at 06:47 PM..*
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11-20-2008, 07:07 PM	#19
Staszek Schumacher 801 Rep 2,291 Posts Drives: E30 325is,E93 M3,X7M50,F06 M6 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Lake Forest, IL iTrader: (0) Garage List 2013 BMW M3 [9.20] 1990 BMW 325is [9.00] 2022 BMW X7 M50 [10.00] 2018 BMW M6 Gran Coupe [9.93]	Since when does bankruptcy mean out of business? GM will not be closing the doors and walk away it will restructure. Personally GM going bankrupt is the best thing that could happen to it. It will give them some breathing room and they can get out of there awful labor contracts that they currently have. This is capitalism and they honestly need to learn how to fail and succeed on there own. As much as the CEO's have there hands in this problem the labor unions are HUGELY at fault. Put it this way when a wrench turner at GM cost $75 an hour (total costs including benefits pension etc) and that same wrench turner at Toyota USA costs $45 an hour we have a major problem. Also this whole 1-10 people are connected to the auto industry bs is just propaganda they are including everyone that touches a car ie: carwash, independent mechanics etc. Guess what people have cars now they still need to be washed and fixed. I have no sympathy for GM , the executives, or the over paid union workers especially when its going to be on my dime to bail them out. Oh and as a side note I think we need this recession so this country starts building real wealth, not fake credit wealth based on their housing. No one knows how to save anymore, we really don't produce anything. The economy as it is currently is a sham and it has finally been exposed.
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11-20-2008, 09:21 PM	#21
cliverman Captain 962 Rep 940 Posts Drives: 2022 X3M Join Date: May 2005 Location: Durham,NC iTrader: (4) Garage List 2011 BMW M3 [10.00]	What's really killing Detroit... http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/...ses/index.html Here's a line from the Union Workers side... "....The differences come from retirement and health-care. Detroit automakers pay a lot more per worker-hour because they have more retirees to whom they extend full health-care benefits." Who in this day and age expects retirement? 401Ks just like everyone else. Freakin' unions were good when they protected the workers but they turned into a crutch. __________________ 2022 X3M 2017 Cayman (Ret) 2019 X3 M40i (Ret.) 2015 F82 ///M4 (Ret.) 2011 E92 ///M3 (Ret.)
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