[jsf721]

My FIL had a brain bleed about 2 weeks ago. He been in great shape for a 90 year old. We made him a 90 birthday party in January and this happened mid February. He was in hospital for several days and miraculously went from little speech and not knowing us to, he recognizes us and speaks coherently. Wow. It was just a mind blowing turn around for the better.

He’s home , his home and has PT,OT and speech therapy several times a week. Also had visiting nurse and an aid 24x7 as my MIL is 88 and cannot physically assist.

Point is his long term care insurance is great and covering most of the above that’s not covered by mecicare and his supplements. Protects his assets.

I’ve got life insurance but never looked at this. I Will be soon. I’m sure it’s crazy expensive as I’m 56 yo. We will see. Just posting so that everyone can consider looking into. And for you young kids do it now same with life insurance. No I don’t sell it -lol. Just a PSA.

On a side note it’s been really stressful on my Wife. She been to 4 doctors in as many days and having the insurance assist with covering expenses is a big relief.

TGIF all

[Bc2005]

Keep in mind that the Long Term Care (LTC) industry has had a lot of difficulty figuring out how to set rates and conditions over the past few years. Rates have gone up significantly because insurers found they had higher claims than expected.

Remember that you pay the premium until you die, and if you cancel it at any point you then usually lose the value of all premiums you have paid. It works like term life insurance.
If you start your policy at age 56 you will probably pay premiums for 30-40 years, and will receive nothing if you die before you need LTC.

All policies also have a cap on the number of years paid, how much per month, and the total amount that will be paid. The numbers that you chose 15-20 years ago may not be enough to support today’s LTC costs for very long.
For example, if I had you set aside money in 2003 for a new BMW in 2023 how far would that money go to buy one today?

Some friends of mine decided to take a different route, and they took out large life insurance policies on each other. They assume that if one of them needs LTC they will just absorb the cost out of savings until that person dies, and then replenish the savings using the life insurance.

[TR930]

Originally Posted by Bc2005

Keep in mind that the Long Term Care (LTC) industry has had a lot of difficulty figuring out how to set rates and conditions over the past few years. Rates have gone up significantly because insurers found they had higher claims than expected.

Remember that you pay the premium until you die, and if you cancel it at any point you then usually lose the value of all premiums you have paid. It works like term life insurance.
If you start your policy at age 56 you will probably pay premiums for 30-40 years, and will receive nothing if you die before you need LTC.

All policies also have a cap on the number of years paid, how much per month, and the total amount that will be paid. The numbers that you chose 15-20 years ago may not be enough to support today’s LTC costs for very long.
For example, if I had you set aside money in 2003 for a new BMW in 2023 how far would that money go to buy one today?

Some friends of mine decided to take a different route, and they took out large life insurance policies on each other. They assume that if one of them needs LTC they will just absorb the cost out of savings until that person dies, and then replenish the savings using the life insurance.

Life insurance policies now contain long term care riders so a spouse does not have to die before benefits are paid. These are " hybrid" policies. There are several out there now. I'm not sure you can find a dedicated long term care policy anymore.

[RickFLM4]

Sorry to hear about your father in law.

My wife and I looked into long term care insurance a few years back. There are different types of plans and costs, ranging from those similar to term life, to some with benefits if you die before using benefits (either cash of combining with spouse's benefit for them to use), as pointed out above. Some have monthly premium payments and some have lump sum upfront premiums. The premiums themselves are all over the board and when / how they kick in also varies. It is important to understand this aspect because home healthcare is important and you want to be able to access whatever you need when you need it, not just a limited schedule of allowable expenses.

There are a couple of things they all have in common through:
1. Acceptance is not guaranteed and an existing condition can send premiums up significantly. When I mentioned my wife's bad knee to the agent (which they would have found out about anyway because they review all medical records), he said that's the kind of thing that could scare away some insurers and / or send premiums skyrocketing.

2. The benefits are generally capped in dollars (also as indicated in a post above) and in this regard, they are more like life insurance than health insurance. So, it's really a risk/reward and investment return play. The lowest premiums apply to "use it or lose it" policies where you lose the premiums if you cancel or never use the benefit (e.g., die before using the benefit). If you take those off the table and just examine the policies where you either use a benefit or a beneficiary receives something back if you don't, examine whether the return (benefits / beneficiary payment) are sufficient relative to the investment (premium). You might find you are better off self-funding savings, which may require higher savings to provide the same level of "benefit" vs. paying premiums, but pays 100% of the investment to a beneficiary if never used and eliminates the risk of needing to haggle with an insurer over benefits or having an insurer go belly up.

Like a lot of insurance and warranty products, it is really about peace of mind. For us, the cost / benefit didn't work for the peace of mind we would seek from such a product. But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense for a lot of other people, especially if you look into it in your 40's / before any health issues give insurers a reason to give you less than preferred rates.

It is very difficult to efficiently plan for late life because there are so many unknowns.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Sorry to hear about your father in law.

My wife and I looked into long term care insurance a few years back. There are different types of plans and costs, ranging from those similar to term life, to some with benefits if you die before using benefits (either cash of combining with spouse's benefit for them to use), as pointed out above. Some have monthly premium payments and some have lump sum upfront premiums. The premiums themselves are all over the board and when / how they kick in also varies. It is important to understand this aspect because home healthcare is important and you want to be able to access whatever you need when you need it, not just a limited schedule of allowable expenses.

There are a couple of things they all have in common through:
1. Acceptance is not guaranteed and an existing condition can send premiums up significantly. When I mentioned my wife's bad knee to the agent (which they would have found out about anyway because they review all medical records), he said that's the kind of thing that could scare away some insurers and / or send premiums skyrocketing.

2. The benefits are generally capped in dollars (also as indicated in a post above) and in this regard, they are more like life insurance than health insurance. So, it's really a risk/reward and investment return play. The lowest premiums apply to "use it or lose it" policies where you lose the premiums if you cancel or never use the benefit (e.g., die before using the benefit). If you take those off the table and just examine the policies where you either use a benefit or a beneficiary receives something back if you don't, examine whether the return (benefits / beneficiary payment) are sufficient relative to the investment (premium). You might find you are better off self-funding savings, which may require higher savings to provide the same level of "benefit" vs. paying premiums, but pays 100% of the investment to a beneficiary if never used and eliminates the risk of needing to haggle with an insurer over benefits or having an insurer go belly up.

Like a lot of insurance and warranty products, it is really about peace of mind. For us, the cost / benefit didn't work for the peace of mind we would seek from such a product. But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense for a lot of other people, especially if you look into it in your 40's / before any health issues give insurers a reason to give you less than preferred rates.

It is very difficult to efficiently plan for late life because there are so many unknowns.

^excellent^

Self insurance (no LTC) is the lowest expected (average) cost scenario. In other words, buying LTC insurance costs more over a lifetime than not having LTC insurance.

It is speculation to forecast or predict whether one’s care needs will be more or less than average. All insurance (and warranties, thanks for including this comparison) accrue more financial benefit to the issuer than to the beneficiary. Otherwise there would be no insurance industry. Let’s not forget the conditions, or hoops to jump through, before receiving payment from the LTC carrier.

In the end, it’s a choice of how much peace of mind do you want to buy?

[jsf721]

I get it and if I could write my own ending I would be gone before I hit the floor. No emotional mental, physical or financial burden to anyone. That’s how I’ve always imagined it. But sadly we don’t write our own endings and they can be long and drawn out. I’ve planned for my death with layered term, universal and whole life policies.

I just don’t want to have them spend my savings on my care. It’s not how I imagined it. I hear it can be 12k a month now in a facility. And I’m 56. I could live a long time paying premiums. It’s upsetting to not have and upsetting to pay all those years and never use it.

Circle completed - That’s my analysis paralysis .

Have s good weekend all.

[UncleWede]

Same age, and having just gone thru it with dad, it freaking SUCKED when he had it, but better than if he didn't. Maximum per hour pay was something like $24. Try and find that now, even after the dampendic is over. He had a GOOD policy when he/mom signed up, but there was no COLA involved.
Also, when I/wife took time from work to cover when a caretaker wasn't even available, no comp to us. That was a condition dad didn't select.

Even with all that, I'm losing some sleep over not having this, as well as setting up our trust and getting all the assets into the trust, making sure enough people have access to accounts/safe deposit boxes/ signature authority.

Why is dying so hard???

I'm diabetic, so dying itself will be even harder. . .

[jsf721]

Ive got life insurance and may end up ear marking it that way as well.

Originally Posted by Bc2005

Keep in mind that the Long Term Care (LTC) industry has had a lot of difficulty figuring out how to set rates and conditions over the past few years. Rates have gone up significantly because insurers found they had higher claims than expected.

Remember that you pay the premium until you die, and if you cancel it at any point you then usually lose the value of all premiums you have paid. It works like term life insurance.
If you start your policy at age 56 you will probably pay premiums for 30-40 years, and will receive nothing if you die before you need LTC.

All policies also have a cap on the number of years paid, how much per month, and the total amount that will be paid. The numbers that you chose 15-20 years ago may not be enough to support today’s LTC costs for very long.
For example, if I had you set aside money in 2003 for a new BMW in 2023 how far would that money go to buy one today?

Some friends of mine decided to take a different route, and they took out large life insurance policies on each other. They assume that if one of them needs LTC they will just absorb the cost out of savings until that person dies, and then replenish the savings using the life insurance.

[jsf721]

I have zoom call re Ltc insurance with a broker Tuesday night and hope to get some good info.

Originally Posted by chassis

^excellent^

Self insurance (no LTC) is the lowest expected (average) cost scenario. In other words, buying LTC insurance costs more over a lifetime than not having LTC insurance.

It is speculation to forecast or predict whether one’s care needs will be more or less than average. All insurance (and warranties, thanks for including this comparison) accrue more financial benefit to the issuer than to the beneficiary. Otherwise there would be no insurance industry. Let’s not forget the conditions, or hoops to jump through, before receiving payment from the LTC carrier.

In the end, it’s a choice of how much peace of mind do you want to buy?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Bc2005

Keep in mind that the Long Term Care (LTC) industry has had a lot of difficulty figuring out how to set rates and conditions over the past few years. Rates have gone up significantly because insurers found they had higher claims than expected.

Remember that you pay the premium until you die, and if you cancel it at any point you then usually lose the value of all premiums you have paid. It works like term life insurance.
If you start your policy at age 56 you will probably pay premiums for 30-40 years, and will receive nothing if you die before you need LTC.

All policies also have a cap on the number of years paid, how much per month, and the total amount that will be paid. The numbers that you chose 15-20 years ago may not be enough to support today’s LTC costs for very long.
For example, if I had you set aside money in 2003 for a new BMW in 2023 how far would that money go to buy one today?

Some friends of mine decided to take a different route, and they took out large life insurance policies on each other. They assume that if one of them needs LTC they will just absorb the cost out of savings until that person dies, and then replenish the savings using the life insurance.

Ya the LTC policies written in the 1990's and early 2000's were allegedly very generous. Almost BK'd some insurers.

[TR930]

Originally Posted by chassis

^excellent^

Self insurance (no LTC) is the lowest expected (average) cost scenario. In other words, buying LTC insurance costs more over a lifetime than not having LTC insurance.

It is speculation to forecast or predict whether one’s care needs will be more or less than average. All insurance (and warranties, thanks for including this comparison) accrue more financial benefit to the issuer than to the beneficiary. Otherwise there would be no insurance industry. Let’s not forget the conditions, or hoops to jump through, before receiving payment from the LTC carrier.

In the end, it’s a choice of how much peace of mind do you want to buy?

This answer was given taking into consideration " averages". Truth is there are people who need 6 Mos of care and die, and 10 years of care and die. Average still comes out to about 2 years.


If you end up on the high side of the average then the average was meaningless. Can you afford to be the high number in that average calculation? That is the purpose of " insurance".

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by jsf721

I have zoom call re Ltc insurance with a broker Tuesday night and hope to get some good info.

Any good info?

[mdf]

Two data points from personal experience.

My mother died in 2021. She contracted Covid, developed Covid pneumonia, and survived it. But she died the next month in a nursing facility, of cardiac arrest. She was profoundly weakened by the ordeal of surviving Covid pneumonia. She never walked again, she never got her voice back, she couldn't feed herself. She had paid premiums on an LTC policy for 50 years. And died without being able to use 1 cent of it. There was an exclusion period, like you have to wait 3 months for LTC benefits to start being paid, that she didn't survive. Costs from her time in the skilled nursing facility, about $10,000 per month, were paid by us out of pocket.

My father fell last year and shattered his pelvis. He's been in skilled nursing and assisted living ever since. He had the same LTC policy as my mother, paying premiums for 50 years. He had the same exclusion period, during which we paid his expenses out of pocket, and a nurse affiliated with the insurer came to the facility during that period to evaluate his claim, but after that the policy started paying out. His monthly premiums went to 0 and money started flowing the other way. The policy has a maximum monthly cap that is about 75% of his current assisted living expenses, single room in a moderately upscale facility, the rest we pay out of pocket. The policy has a lifetime cap of about $360,000. The last monthly premium he paid on the policy in 2022 was $165.92. I don't know what the premium amounts were over time, or if he received employer contributions while working, but he paid premiums 100% out of pocket since retiring.

For my parents, in my opinion, they would have been better off investing in a stock fund instead of buying an LTC policy. HSAs are an option now but did not exist 50 years ago.

[jsf721]

Waiting for a quote.

So far I’ve learned that insurance companies lost their shirts in the past and anyone signing up is paying the price.

The good plans are no longer available. What’s left is ok but I think the way to go is with hybrid policies. Insurance policies that can be drawn down to cover long term care and when you expire it gets paid back. Any Balance goes to beneficiaries.

Fill you in when I get my quote and better explanation.

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Any good info?