[Crazy1323]

I am curious, I wonder if this will be the last M5 with a combustion engine. I am really sure this will be the last generation with a v8.

My “line in the sand” is 1,000 miles. Once EV’s hit a 1,000 mile range I would have no problem with a full EV. With how battery development is going, I don’t think we are far off.

I recently went from 200 amp to 400 amp service at my house in anticipation of some EV’s in the future. I even have 3 phase power at my house if I want DC fast charging in the future.

[DocWeatherington]

It depends on market demands as the push for EVs is slowing... and many markets are pulling back, both on the manufacturer and government push side. Hybrids are up but even at that the costs is being pushed to the consumer.

I don't think this will be the last generation with a V8, again the M5 is a niche vehicle and a key to it being sold. With that I would see certain cars being sold in certain markets based upon market needs.

If by next generation zero net emission e fuels take off, manufacturers may forgo all hybrid stuff and just give ICE motors as it's net zero and cheaper to produce, repair and for consumers to buy.

[Remigijus]

In recent interviews of BMW, they stated that they will not abandon combustion engines and keep investing in gasoline/diesel engines.

So somehow doubt it that next one will be fully electric. They may introduce new ones as fully EV, but hope there will be PHEV with V8 in future.

[CarlosM4]

Once they went with this non sense PHEV platform, is unlikely they will swing full EV or full ICE, as a full ICE M5, will likely render the previous gen non-sense, and a full EV, will go in a direction nor consumers, nor the brand itself wants.

The next one or two BMW M5 generations will likely be PHEV.

[RPiM5]

Nope, the next BMW M5 WILL be a Full EV.

They have about 7 years to figure it out at this point. In 7 years time, battery tech will be much different. Even the next 3-Series with the future i3 coming soon, will have much better battery tech than what BMW currently offers.

After weighing my options, and considering putting a down payment on G90 M5, I decided against getting the G90 for now. The main factor was the dealerships unwilling to work with me. I called about 15 dealerships in my entire State, no one was wanted to come 1 penny off of MSRP. So I considered the next best thing, the i5 M60 BEV.

I wasn't too keen on getting a Full EV at this point, but after doing some research and crunching the numbers, I figured out it actually worked out better for my commuting to work and having a fun car to drive around as a daily driver. I ended up leasing a 2024 i5 M60 with some massive rebates, incentives, and discounts, basically getting a lease payment for about 60% less than what I would have paid on a lease for a G90 M5 (including my own money down of course).

I will tell you what, the weight aside (~5,200lbs for the i5 M60), if this car had the steering, suspension, and 727hp of the G90 M5, I wouldn't even mind if the G90 generation M5 was Full Electric at this point in time. Yes, the i5 M60 is that good. BMW ///M's main decision against making the G90 M5 a full BEV at this point, is that it can't be charged fast enough for back to back sessions at a Race Track. But that will change in the near future with better technology. Even so, the current fast charging rate in the i5 M60, is still very good and I don't see the problem at all with the current 400v rates. An 800v or 1000v would be amazing, but the fast charging infrastructure is not even close to making this available everywhere yet.

I think it's great that the G90 M5 is a PHEV with a V8 engine still for the next 7 years, as it gives people time to enjoy the last breaths and sounds of a V8 engine in an M5. But with a future M5 going full electric, people won't miss the V8 much, because the performance will simply be astonishing.

The i5 M60 I got, is basically an M550i with a battery propulsion. It's phenomenal for what it is. I only notice the weight when pushing it towards 10/tenths at speeds over 60mph. But the suspension and stiffer chassis engineering on the G90 M5 will mitigate most of the apprehensions of throwing such a heavy car around a track or the street. On the i5 M60, they set it up just enough to be sporty and enjoy a little fun without the fear of losing control.

Preparing your house for a higher amperage and 3-phase power is definitely a good idea now and in the future. The era of Full Electric ///M's is coming and it's going to be good.

I say that if you can afford it and have the space, it's a good idea to keep your E39, E60, F10 or F90 M5, and lease a G90 or the next generation Electric M5, that way you have the best of both worlds. I kept my F10 M5, and between my 3,500lbs G20 330i, my high modded F10 M5, and my G60 i5 M60, I have the best of three BMW worlds to choose from on a daily basis. My personal plans include adding an E60 M5 to my stable as soon as I get more garage space very soon. That way I have an N/A V10 to play around with as well.

I wouldn't fear the next M5 being a Full Electric car, it's going to be awesome, and I'm willing to bet it's going to be lighter than the G90 M5. I feel the G90 M5 will be a stepping stone to the Full BEV M5, so that in the future, owning a G90 M5 will allow people to also own a car that has the option of using both gas and electric, rather than being restricted to full electric.

As a side note, KIA just announced a new BEV performance car that will replace the KIA Stinger, and it will have 600hp and a 500 mile EPA rated range. Compared to the current i5 M60's 600hp and only 260 mile EPA range. Better Full Electric Performance cars are coming, and they won't be Teslas. Like I said, BMW has 7 years to figure it out, I'm sure they'll do a great job.

Now the question is, what will happen with the next M3 and M4? Will it stay pure ICE, Hybrid, or go Full Electric when in a few years it comes out? Let's stay tuned.

[Crazy1323]

Installing DC fast chargers at tracks will be a challenge. I doubt many will have the power supply to feed enough juice to the facility. If they do have it, you’re talking about maybe 1 or 2.

For perspective, a medium to large house in the US will have what is called 200 amp service. This means that if the house were to pull more than 200 amps, it would trip the main breaker. 200 amps at 240 volts is 48KW. The fastest DC chargers now are 350KW, so the demand for 1 of those chargers is the same as over 7 houses in the US. You need power infrastructure designed for subdivisions, not what would have been installed when that track was built.


Getting 3 phase in residential environments will be nearly impossible for most.

[mitch65]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Nope, the next BMW M5 WILL be a Full EV.

After weighing my options, and considering putting a down payment on G90 M5, I decided against getting the G90 for now. The main factor was the dealerships unwilling to work with me. I called about 15 dealerships in my entire State, no one was wanted to come 1 penny off of MSRP. So I considered the next best thing, the i5 M60 BEV.

I wasn't too keen on getting a Full EV at this point, but after doing some research and crunching the numbers, I figured out it actually worked out better for my commuting to work and having a fun car to drive around as a daily driver. I ended up leasing a 2024 i5 M60 with some massive rebates, incentives, and discounts, basically getting a lease payment for about 60% less than what I would have paid on a lease for a G90 M5 (including my own money down of course).

Now the question is, what will happen with the next M3 and M4? Will it stay pure ICE, Hybrid, or go Full Electric when in a few years it comes out? Let's stay tuned.

I had a i5 M60 loaner a few days and also a i4 M50 for a couple days. The i4 was much more fun to drive and just felt more "normal" inside than the i5 to me. Curious what you think of the door pulls on the inside, you have to reach in a bit to open the door. The i5 is just too big for me, it's especially tall, feels like a 7 series. I wish the new 5 series was more low slung, like a Panamera or Taycan. Both the i4 M50 & the i5 M60 could never get over 200 miles of range when I had them which was ok. Long term they are going to need range improvements to sell these without huge incentives. Just watch, like the XM Label, the G90 will have huge rebates by the end of next year.

[subterFUSE]

I think the chances the M5 goes full electric for the next gen are very, very low. All of these EV mandates for 2030 are completely unrealistic. Just not going to happen on that timeline.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by mitch65

I had a i5 M60 loaner a few days and also a i4 M50 for a couple days. The i4 was much more fun to drive and just felt more "normal" inside than the i5 to me. Curious what you think of the door pulls on the inside, you have to reach in a bit to open the door. The i5 is just too big for me, it's especially tall, feels like a 7 series. I wish the new 5 series was more low slung, like a Panamera or Taycan. Both the i4 M50 & the i5 M60 could never get over 200 miles of range when I had them which was ok. Long term they are going to need range improvements to sell these without huge incentives. Just watch, like the XM Label, the G90 will have huge rebates by the end of next year.

Being that I already have a G20 3-Series. I wanted another car that had a more spacious and comfortable interior, that wasn’t an SUV, and the 4-Series was just too small with the same front seat design as my 3-Series pretty much. I already get that fun factor driving experience with the G20, being that it’s only 3,500lbs and I bumped up the power and torque on it to 295hp and 350tq.

In the G60, you are absolutely 1,000% right that it’s a huge car! And my chief complaint with it is that’s it’s too tall! I would say the car is definitely too big, almost seems like it’s a Crossover at times when looking at it in person. Of course this is the dilemma, for someone that doesn’t want an SUV, and the 3-Series is too small and uncomfortable for longer drives, but then the 7-Series is absolutely too big and too pricey, what else are we left with?? I had no interest in a Mercedes or an EQE. I was considering getting a used Audi S6, but it guzzles too much gas for long commutes. An S8 is too big and too pricey as well. Shame they had to make the G60 so big but there’s almost no other mid-sized luxury sedan that competes on the level of the BMW. I hate the Volvo Polestars, and the Taycans are too much money and suffer insane depreciation as well. Same with the Panamera. At least with the i5, BMW has too much inventory at this time is willing to discount them to get them off the lots.

Once you get inside the G60/G90 it does shrink around you and the Rear Wheel Steering performs that magic trick so well of making you feel like you are driving a car that can turn on a dime. So far I’m exceeding the 260 mile range in my M60. I actually like the door pulls on the inside, but they definitely made some weird styling choices in the interior that I don’t understand. Such as no LED Light Strip on the Rear Doors, super thin turn signal stalk, and I miss having a traditional music volume knob on the upper center console.

I don’t know how well the G90 is going sell say, come January 2025 or 2nd quarter 2025. I think a lot of the people who will initially buy or lease a G90 won’t care about the weight gain, and won’t care about wasting money by paying full MSRP. After that, I can’t see many true driving purist enthusiasts buying this car other than the reason is because there’s just not many other offerings in this segment. I was considering buying a G90 to use a daily driver / commuter car but only if the price was good. Other than those purposes the G90 wouldn’t be as fun drive on a mountain or country road as my F10.

If the next generation M5 does go Full Electric, I will imagine that it will be less tall and lighter than the G90 M5, giving that car 2 reasons to get it over the G90.

Oh and no matter if you get a G60 or a G90 I can absolutely say now without a doubt that the deletion of Soft Close Doors is a damn travesty. I have already had my passengers fail to close the doors several times on the G60. You really have to push a little harder to get them to close. It’s a damn shame on a car that’s costs this much. Damn you BMW.

Otherwise all the new tech on these modern BMW’s is pretty cool once you get to learn the systems. The M60 I got is fully loaded and I have already used the Level 2 Highway Assistant in heavy traffic. It relieves so much stress from the driver!

[DHDCF]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Being that I already have a G20 3-Series. I wanted another car that had a more spacious and comfortable interior, that wasn’t an SUV, and the 4-Series was just too small with the same front seat design as my 3-Series pretty much. I already get that fun factor driving experience with the G20, being that it’s only 3,500lbs and I bumped up the power and torque on it to 295hp and 350tq.

In the G60, you are absolutely 1,000% right that it’s a huge car! And my chief complaint with it is that’s it’s too tall! I would say the car is definitely too big, almost seems like it’s a Crossover at times when looking at it in person. Of course this is the dilemma, for someone that doesn’t want an SUV, and the 3-Series is too small and uncomfortable for longer drives, but then the 7-Series is absolutely too big and too pricey, what else are we left with?? I had no interest in a Mercedes or an EQE. I was considering getting a used Audi S6, but it guzzles too much gas for long commutes. An S8 is too big and too pricey as well. Shame they had to make the G60 so big but there’s almost no other mid-sized luxury sedan that competes on the level of the BMW. I hate the Volvo Polestars, and the Taycans are too much money and suffer insane depreciation as well. Same with the Panamera. At least with the i5, BMW has too much inventory at this time is willing to discount them to get them off the lots.

Once you get inside the G60/G90 it does shrink around you and the Rear Wheel Steering performs that magic trick so well of making you feel like you are driving a car that can turn [...]

Really thought I'd miss the volume knob after having extended my arm that way for the past 38 years! But I really, really like where they've placed it as it makes sense. It's convenient. Comfortable. Easy. Hope you continue to enjoy the i5 m60. The boost paddle is legit.

[monkeyman8]

Even MB is walking back the "full EV by 2030" statements. Now committed to investing in ICE well into the 2030's. I fully expect the next gen M5 to be PHEV.

[subterFUSE]

The next M5 will not be full EV. BMW relies to much on the USA market and there is absolutely zero chance the USA is ready for a full EV M5 in 7 years. Battery technology aside, there simply won't be sufficient infrastructure for customers to be enthusiastic about it.

[DocWeatherington]

Volvo just did an about face on EVs.. they planned to have an full EV lineup by 2030.

Ford has also pushed and postponed EVs.

No longer the case.

The idea to go full EV is slowing changing. I want to say of anything at least another generation will be hybrid as production cycled are 7 years... within the next 3-4 years it will be decided and if the market is the way it is...bmw won't justify it.

I think a full EV M5 is a few generation away.

[subterFUSE]

You can't make such a massive change to our method of transportation this quickly. All of these 2030 target dates were never even remotely possible, and only retards would have thought so. Anyone that actually looks at this objectively could tell you that you can't just replace the way we power our cars by an arbitrary date you pull out of your butt. It takes decades. 2050 is a more realistic target, but honestly.... I suspect that automotive technology for alternative fuels will render plug-in electric cars obsolete long before we achieve widespread adoption. EVs are a fad and nothing more.

[Crazy1323]

Originally Posted by subterFUSE

You can't make such a massive change to our method of transportation this quickly. All of these 2030 target dates were never even remotely possible, and only retards would have thought so. Anyone that actually looks at this objectively could tell you that you can't just replace the way we power our cars by an arbitrary date you pull out of your butt. It takes decades. 2050 is a more realistic target, but honestly.... I suspect that automotive technology for alternative fuels will render plug-in electric cars obsolete long before we achieve widespread adoption. EVs are a fad and nothing more.

I don’t think the 2030 goals were saying “by 2030 there will only be electric cars”. They were saying new cars sold. You will still be able to purchase some kind of combustible liquid fuel to use in an ICE car for at least the rest of my lifetime. The switch away from ICE will happen gradually.

By 2030 I will be the majority of new passenger vehicles sold will either be a BEV, or have some form of plug-in hybrid capabilities. EREV’s (electric range extended vehicles) are also becoming popular.

As battery technology advances infrastructure becomes less of an issue, at least in the US. There is not a power capacity issue in the US, there is a power distribution issue with electrified vehicle adoption. Higher capacity/lower cost batteries make the electric infrastructure issue almost a moot point. As we see battery technology develop (including utilizing chemistries other than lithium based ones) we will see a pretty big increase in the usability of EV’s. As usability increases, adoption increases.

Doing some VERY rough math, a Mercedes E class in the city travels about 20 miles on a gallon of gas. For a lucid air to travel 20 miles in the city it needs 4 kWHr of power. Since a pounds of gas weighs 6 pounds, we need an energy density of about 1,400 KW hr per Kg for a battery that weights the same as a gallon of gas to take a car the same distance. Since 2019 the energy density of batteries has gone from 250 to 500. If it doubles again over the next 5 years we are at 1,000. Pound for pound. If that rate continues by the early 2030’s a car will travel further powered by a 1 pound battery than it would power by 1 pound of gasoline.

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by Crazy1323

I don’t think the 2030 goals were saying “by 2030 there will only be electric cars”. They were saying new cars sold. You will still be able to purchase some kind of combustible liquid fuel to use in an ICE car for at least the rest of my lifetime. The switch away from ICE will happen gradually.

By 2030 I will be the majority of new passenger vehicles sold will either be a BEV, or have some form of plug-in hybrid capabilities. EREV’s (electric range extended vehicles) are also becoming popular.

As battery technology advances infrastructure becomes less of an issue, at least in the US. There is not a power capacity issue in the US, there is a power distribution issue with electrified vehicle adoption. Higher capacity/lower cost batteries make the electric infrastructure issue almost a moot point. As we see battery technology develop (including utilizing chemistries other than lithium based ones) we will see a pretty big increase in the usability of EV’s. As usability increases, adoption increases.

Doing some VERY rough math, a Mercedes E class in the city travels about 20 miles on a gallon of gas. For a lucid air to travel 20 miles in the city it needs 4 kWHr of power. Since a pounds of gas weighs 6 pounds, we need an energy density of about 1,400 KW hr per Kg for a battery that weights the same as a gallon of gas to take a car the same distance. Since 2019 the energy density of batteries has gone from 250 to 500. If it doubles again over the next 5 years we are at 1,000. Pound for pound. If that rate continues by the early 2030’s a car will travel further powered by a 1 pound battery than it would power by 1 pound of gasoline.

All well and good except if it still takes 20-40 minutes to charge a battery compared to filling up your gas tank in 5 minutes you are still no where imo. Not to mention the weight difference between ice and ev cars.

[Crazy1323]

Originally Posted by Savoy2001

All well and good except if it still takes 20-40 minutes to charge a battery compared to filling up your gas tank in 5 minutes you are still no where imo. Not to mention the weight difference between ice and ev cars.

I not only mentioned the weight issue, I did math showing that it is getting smaller and smaller.

The difference is that you can get electricity a lot more places than you can get gasoline. But this takes a difference in how we refuel our cars. Rather than drive until empty and then refuel like we do with gasoline, you plug your vehicle in any time you’re going to be parked somewhere for a while. How often are people driving 400-ish miles without being stopped somewhere that has electricity for 20-40 minutes?

[Savoy2001]

Originally Posted by Crazy1323

I not only mentioned the weight issue, I did math showing that it is getting smaller and smaller.

The difference is that you can get electricity a lot more places than you can get gasoline. But this takes a difference in how we refuel our cars. Rather than drive until empty and then refuel like we do with gasoline, you plug your vehicle in any time you’re going to be parked somewhere for a while. How often are people driving 400-ish miles without being stopped somewhere that has electricity for 20-40 minutes?

You can get electricity in alot more places than gas? Lol is not just electricity it’s an actual charger to go along with that electricity don’t ya think? I don’t let my cats go to empty ever but that doesn’t change my argument. You need to be constantly plugging your car in like you said where ever you go which to me is simply ridiculous. I will have no part of that nonsense. I laugh when I see that shit. In fact eventually there won’t be enough chargers to go around anyway if the libs got their way. Imagine everyone parking every where and charging their cars? Lol. I was at Starbucks by e the other day and they have alot of Tesla chargers. I saw 3 people sitting in their cars charging. I couldn’t help but laugh. I grabbed my coffee then went across the street filled up on gas tank and went on my way. All three battery powered cars were still sitting there. It’s just laughable. I will have no part of that nonsense. You guys can have fun with that crap. I’ll be dammed off I’m going to pay for the privilege of having to do that every where I go. Not happening here.

[subterFUSE]

Originally Posted by Crazy1323

I don’t think the 2030 goals were saying “by 2030 there will only be electric cars”. They were saying new cars sold. You will still be able to purchase some kind of combustible liquid fuel to use in an ICE car for at least the rest of my lifetime. The switch away from ICE will happen gradually.

California's mandate says no new cars can be sold with ICE engines starting in 2030. And I am saying this is an impossible goal in reality. They are going to be forced to backtrack on that. California is losing a lot of residents every year, but that mandate could force even more of an exodus.

Most of the German car companies were saying the same thing, no more ICE built starting 2030. They all have accepted the reality this is an impossible goal.

There is not a power capacity issue in the US, there is a power distribution issue with electrified vehicle adoption.

There is a power capacity issue in some parts of the country, like California. That state cannot keep the lights turned on during the hot months. They have rolling brownouts all the time, and rationing of electricity. Add a few million more EVs to the mix and this is going to be a disaster.

[Crazy1323]

Originally Posted by subterFUSE

There is a power capacity issue in some parts of the country, like California. That state cannot keep the lights turned on during the hot months. They have rolling brownouts all the time, and rationing of electricity. Add a few million more EVs to the mix and this is going to be a disaster.

While I am not in agreement with Cali’s policies. Saying that “rolling blackouts means not enough power for EV’s” is not accurate.

California has had rolling blackouts during the hot times of the day because instantaneous demand exceeds total power generation capacity at the same instance in time. The power demands on a system are not static throughout the day. In California during the summer the demand is the lowest at about 5am (roughly 30 gigawatts). The peak demand of about 50 gigwatts occurs around 6pm. Cali has about 60 gigawatts of generation capacity. Let’s say we had a SUPER hot month and power usage increased 25% over typical summer usage.

This would mean that the lowest demand would be 37.5 gigwatts and the highest would be 62.5 gigawatts. Since 62.5 is higher than capacity of 60 then there would be rolling blackouts to artificially cap demand at 60 so the system frequency doesn’t drop. But even though there were rolling blackouts that day, there still was plenty of excess power capacity in the morning since you were only operating at about 60% of total capacity.

This issue of power demand not being constant is a HUGE issue for the US power grid. We have to use power the same instant that we generate it. It becomes a very delicate dance to keep generation and demand matched up perfectly.

In theory you could set EV’s to charge when the system demand is less than capacity, making your grid run more efficiently. While possible, this wouldn’t be very convenient. If batteries were cheap and dense enough then you could have a large battery installed at your house or office. This battery is charged at a constant power 24/7. When demand is less than capacity the battery is charging, when demand is higher than capacity the power is drawn from the battery.

This idea is basically how air conditioning for large buildings work. During the night and early morning when demand isn’t as high and power is cheaper the AC’s work to make large blocks of ice. During the day these blocks of ice are used to make cold water that is circulated through the building to make cold air, melting the ice. At night it freezes again and the cycle starts all over.

[subterFUSE]

So you don't think people will need to charge cars except at night?

[Crazy1323]

Originally Posted by subterFUSE

So you don't think people will need to charge cars except at night?

Not necessarily. I think as battery technology advances we can have high capacity, stationary batteries charged up at night and during low demand part of the day, like a buffer tank. When we have a high demand (like when running our AC or charging an EV) we draw from that battery instead of directly from the grid. If the house battery and the EV battery were the same voltage (if everyone could agree on a voltage) DC fast charging at home would literally be plug and play. By using batteries as buffers this could make the daily demand on the grid literally flat or near flat.

This is basically the theory of bi-directional charging with EV’s, use the big EV battery as the buffer tank. Personally I don’t want to use my vehicles battery for this, but a large battery at a house would serve the same purpose.

In my “perfect world” you would have nearly flat power demand throughout the day because of big batteries being used as buffer tanks. Nuclear energy is designed to produce constant output 24/7, it doesn’t like to speed up and slow down like natural gas. If your demand curve is flat you could have 100% nuclear power. But we need the cost of batteries to come down to do this. Theoretically you could have LESS overall capacity if you found a way to use closer to 100% of that capacity 24/7/365.

This is purely from a technical standpoint. I have a degree in mechanical engineering, but I am not a practicing engineer. I do not know enough about the environmental impacts of future battery manufacturing techniques to know that part of it. This ignore those impacts because I honestly don’t know if it would be good or bad environmentally overall.