[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by baege

the zf8 is actually a pretty good manumatic, but it doesn't come in any normally aspirated cars...

Pssst....not true. All of FCAs V8-powered cars have a ZF 8-speed auto. I just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT a couple of weeks ago, which has that tranny as well.

There are plenty of lower mileage NA cars from previous generations of BMWs and Porsches if you don't want a corvette, mustang, or FCA product. The previous gen C63 is also a fantastic car, particularly the updated version.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

Pssst....not true. All of FCAs V8-powered cars have a ZF 8-speed auto. I just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT a couple of weeks ago, which has that tranny as well.

There are plenty of lower mileage NA cars from previous generations of BMWs and Porsches if you don't want a corvette, mustang, or FCA product. The previous gen C63 is also a fantastic car, particularly the updated version.

The thing is that a ZF8 doesn't really mean anything special, the tuning, exact materials and gear ratios that make it work well in one car are not necessarily replicated in the next. It's a good transmission, outstanding in some cars, but others are very poor.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

The thing is that a ZF8 doesn't really mean anything special, the tuning, exact materials and gear ratios that make it work well in one car are not necessarily replicated in the next. It's a good transmission, outstanding in some cars, but others are very poor.

Absolutely. Even within brands. It was a total mess in our LCI F30, but absolutely great in the X3 M40i we test drove.

[baege]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

Pssst....not true. All of FCAs V8-powered cars have a ZF 8-speed auto. I just bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT a couple of weeks ago, which has that tranny as well.

There are plenty of lower mileage NA cars from previous generations of BMWs and Porsches if you don't want a corvette, mustang, or FCA product. The previous gen C63 is also a fantastic car, particularly the updated version.

good to know, but none of the v8 FCA products appeal to me (i like compact cars)

I do want newer with warranty which limits me...
the prev gen c63 has a great NA engine but a horrible manumatic...I don't like lag anywhere in my cars

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

bottom line is the car Eft chose was an F30 which was available with a 6 speed manual and to make it more fair for this hypothetical endeavor, comparing apples to apples both cars should be equipped similarly.

Okay, I'm fine with the comparison being both manual equipped cars. I still think the M20 breathes better and moves up and down the Rev range better.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by baege

good to know, but none of the v8 FCA products appeal to me (i like compact cars)

I do want newer with warranty which limits me...
the prev gen c63 has a great NA engine but a horrible manumatic...I don't like lag anywhere in my cars

Understood. The FCA cars aren't for everyone, that's for sure. Seems like between ZF and Aisin, the traditional automatic market is largely covered. I generally agree with the smaller car thing, as well. And like you, I was not terribly impressed with the transmission on a C63 I drove in the canyons in Northern California a few years ago.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Soterios

I mean....I get that lag is a bummer, but I'd rather have a little bit of lag and 300hp than no lag and 200hp.

BOOM! My thoughts exactly. My N55 has very little lag. The lack of appreciable power down low with the big v6's popular now is worse than turbo lag for me.

[baege]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

BOOM! My thoughts exactly. My N55 has very little lag. The lack of appreciable power down low with the big v6's popular now is worse than turbo lag for me.

it's all very subjective, I was choosing between a 135i and a z4 coupe 3.0si back in the day and the instant response and sound of the n52 was part of why I it chose it over the 135i which was much faster...

but if you're not an NA lover why are you are posting in this thread?

[roastbeef]

i drove a friend's golf R the other day and while it was a fun car for a daily driver. it was quite boring, muted, and numb. its not to volkswagen what M is to bmw.
even when keeping the rpm's high, it had significant lag. very underwhelming.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by baege

it's all very subjective, I was choosing between a 135i and a z4 coupe 3.0si back in the day and the instant response and sound of the n52 was part of why I it chose it over the 135i which was much faster...

but if you're not an NA lover why are you are posting in this thread?

The thread wasn't titled "he man turbo hater", so I thought I could post here.

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

The thread wasn't titled "he man turbo hater", so I thought I could post here.

Exactly. It's a discussion forum. We're here to discuss. Like discussing how nice the front ends of 128i's look in the rear view mirror.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Soterios

Exactly. It's a discussion forum. We're here to discuss. Like discussing how nice the front ends of 128i's look in the rear view mirror.

I've noticed the BEST people drive 2012 135's.........

[eluded]

I got vtec, yo

[adc100]

My' '18 Forester XT doesn't have a noticeable lag. But I suspect its no better than BMW's 2.0. As mentioned better to have (in the case of a 2.0 250 HP instead of 200 without the Turbo.

And lets face it you are not going to blow anyone away in a 2.0 X3 just like I won't on my Forester XT. But it beats the hell (literally) out of the 185 HP NA engine.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by adc100

My' '18 Forester XT doesn't have a noticeable lag. But I suspect its no better than BMW's 2.0. As mentioned better to have (in the case of a 2.0 250 HP instead of 200 without the Turbo.

And lets face it you are not going to blow anyone away in a 2.0 X3 just like I won't on my Forester XT. But it beats the hell (literally) out of the 185 HP NA engine.

The auto FXTs were some of the worst though, the engine didn't have enough gears to keep it in the right range so it was a dog at times. I remember reading a review where they talked about holding the brake and revving it way up in gear. I would have loved an older manual FXT to turn into a badass wagon. My 2.0 WRX was bad in 2nd below the borderline until I did the full stage 2. It wasn't great after that, but at least I didn't have to downshift to first anymore. There was no good reason why Subaru kept making that 4EAT and it should never have been speced on the WRX and questionable for the FXT. Classic example of a car that should only be manual (vs. modern ones that are better and faster with some variation of an auto).

I still maintain that what people perceive as "lag" is throttle lag and the auto trans simply being in the wrong gear or having to shift first. When you are in "boost range" the response is immediate and these modern turbo engines stay in boost range pretty much all the time, so that's definitely not the issue.

There's no comparison between my 2.0 WRX and the N20 I had on my 4-series. The 4 series would go right away when in sport or sport+. The WRX would not, lots of rev-matching and downshifting or waiting for boost to build. The N20 taps right off the exhaust headers getting the hottest gasses right from the source and that in turn spins up very fast, the WRX routed unequal length headers down, around, and then back up to the turbo, many feet of tubing just for the exhaust to reach the turbo. At least the intercooler was close, but fast turbo-spinners those cars were not. You still run into lag when you want to take a car with a 2.0 and pound out 400+hp, because you need a pretty big turbo for that and that will require a big intercooler and to fill all that volume will take time and require that much more exhaust to do so. In the 200-300hp range you can make those 2.0 spin up fast. More than that and you'd probably need an electric motor to assist in reducing lag, which we are seeing more of these days.

[adc100]

Yea..you are right about the old 4 speed. But it was a bullet-proof trannny. In spite of all subaru's innovations..they lay some huge eggs like the EJ engine eating HG's for 10 years. That was inexcusable.

The EJ turbo was a beast and a great engine. The FA engine has been named one of wards 10 best 3 times in 7 years. I wish they would have put the NA version in the 2019 Forester or better yet in the Crosstrek. It managed 205 HP out of the 2.0
I got the '18 XT bc that was the last year for it in the Forester.

[irishbimmer]

Originally Posted by Real Dodger

I've noticed the BEST people drive 2012 135's.........

HaHA, People that drive M6's are rarer but there is a sort of elevated behavior associated with them, we usually let 135's in while exiting because we can. Although we tend to get banned for our political pronouncements.