[W///]

Originally Posted by NSXR

I think you're forgetting how many older people there are in the population, and how tied to memory and freedom vehicles are. I agree with you technically, but there is a whole lot of dreaming you're missing. Did you happen to catch Barrett Jackson Scottsdale this past week? People pay MILLIONS of dollars (billions in total) every year to go back, not forward. This is something that can't be swept under the rug.

I do agree that the guys wanting a manual transmission Z4 with great handling, great sound, etc are a shrinking population, but the guys loving ICE will be around as long as their memory lasts.

Absolutely no one is buying these 6-7 figure cars from Barrett Jackson to drive them to work and get groceries in all weather 5 days a week.

I love these fun ICE cars as much as the next person here, but I currently daily drive a G20 330e and absolutely love it (for what it is). I would never have an EV as an only car, but I totally see them as a great supplement to fun ICE cars.

Originally Posted by Alfisti

They're a niche though, I mean some people still take trips on a steam train due to nostalgia.

The mass market will switch based on buyer preference and if an EV was the same price an an ICE vehicle and could be charged in 5 minutes like an ICE vehicle but you can run it for much less, then a ICE would be dead overnight. That's a lot of if's though, we've hit a wall on charging that no one seems capable of overcoming and untl that is sorted range anxiety will remain.

Range is a symptom, not a cause, the cause is the slow charging.

Exactly right. If given the choice between a 4 pot VW Tiguan or an EV version if they had one, I can't see on reason to go ICE there ASSUMING charging is not a problem. And this would also be assuming similar price wise.

What drives me crazy is when these journalists compare Teslas with M3's. I know some people cross shop them, but it makes 0 sense for me.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

They're a niche though, I mean some people still take trips on a steam train due to nostalgia.

True, but not so many people do this. ICE car culture is in every city, every nation, and every warm weekend. They've run out of names for Cars and Coffee it's so pervasive.

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The mass market will switch based on buyer preference and if an EV was the same price an an ICE vehicle and could be charged in 5 minutes like an ICE vehicle but you can run it for much less, then a ICE would be dead overnight.

Overnight is an impossibility. No infrastructure to support an industry that's too expensive to begin with. Look around you, most people just don't have the money for these kinds of vehicles, and that's not going to change overnight even if the infrastructure could.

EV's are a slow burn, there is no other way at the moment. The future is interesting for sure.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by NSXR

True, but not so many people do this. ICE car culture is in every city, every nation, and every warm weekend. They've run out of names for Cars and Coffee it's so pervasive.



Overnight is an impossibility. No infrastructure to support an industry that's too expensive to begin with. Look around you, most people just don't have the money for these kinds of vehicles, and that's not going to change overnight even if the infrastructure could.

EV's are a slow burn, there is no other way at the moment. The future is interesting for sure.

Culture is irrelevant, sort out charging and EV's explode, my take though has been we will NOT get on top of charging for a lifetime.

Your second paragraph is just repeating what I said, I am acknowledging we are not there yet, if we were, ICE would vanish.... but we are not and seem to have al but stalled.

[dfox]

This thing is awesome. Would absolutely consider getting one if we could get them here, but they just don't make sense for the general american public so we won't see them.



but then, all the us folks in here, coming in and mucking up a thread about a european targeted EV. typical. guys, the US is massive compared to europe. Our commute is longer than it is for them to go on a road trip.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Culture is irrelevant, sort out charging and EV's explode, my take though has been we will NOT get on top of charging for a lifetime.

Your second paragraph is just repeating what I said, I am acknowledging we are not there yet, if we were, ICE would vanish.... but we are not and seem to have al but stalled.

You're neglecting cost.

Reality is the benefit that EVs have is government subsidies, and companies selling them at a loss. If they were priced at their true costs, nobody would buy them.

It isn't charging that's the issue, it's cost. A Kia EV6 GT is like $62k for a freaking Kia that's GTI sized. The EV9 that's basically a $50k Telluride alternative is $78k.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

A Kia EV6 GT is like $62k for a freaking Kia that's GTI sized.

Kia EV6 is not GTI sized. Like, not even close. 16 inches longer, 3 inches taller, 4 inches wider...

Kia EV6 GT comes with 641 HP and 568 TQ with AWD. How much does the fwd GTI come with again?

The cars are in completely different categories man...

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

You're neglecting cost.

Reality is the benefit that EVs have is government subsidies, and companies selling them at a loss. If they were priced at their true costs, nobody would buy them.

It isn't charging that's the issue, it's cost. A Kia EV6 GT is like $62k for a freaking Kia that's GTI sized. The EV9 that's basically a $50k Telluride alternative is $78k.

Nope, I mentioned it earlier.

[W///]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

You're neglecting cost.

Reality is the benefit that EVs have is government subsidies, and companies selling them at a loss. If they were priced at their true costs, nobody would buy them.

It isn't charging that's the issue, it's cost. A Kia EV6 GT is like $62k for a freaking Kia that's GTI sized. The EV9 that's basically a $50k Telluride alternative is $78k.

No he's not, that's the whole point of this thread rather than EV's in general. The discussion is regarding this Renault, and when I look on the UK configurator, the mid-range comes out to 27K British Pounds.

A Honda Jazz Hybrid in the UK for the most basic model starts at 27K British Pounds as well. A base Golf with a 1.5L engine is also the same price.

I realize they're not 1:1, but at least this EV is on the same planet price wise as a comparable ICE. Between how they're priced, the cool and interesting design, features, I'd say this is compelling. Again, this is not to replace everyone's Mclaren.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by W///

No he's not, that's the whole point of this thread rather than EV's in general. The discussion is regarding this Renault, and when I look on the UK configurator, the mid-range comes out to 27K British Pounds.

A Honda Jazz Hybrid in the UK for the most basic model starts at 27K British Pounds as well. A base Golf with a 1.5L engine is also the same price.

I realize they're not 1:1, but at least this EV is on the same planet price wise as a comparable ICE. Between how they're priced, the cool and interesting design, features, I'd say this is compelling. Again, this is not to replace everyone's Mclaren.

Near me, you can go buy a brand new Nissan Leaf for $19K. This Renault is not likely to be much smaller than the leaf, and much more compelling.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

Kia EV6 is not GTI sized. Like, not even close. 16 inches longer, 3 inches taller, 4 inches wider...

Kia EV6 GT comes with 641 HP and 568 TQ with AWD. How much does the fwd GTI come with again?

The cars are in completely different categories man...

I saw an EV6 today and it looked to be very much GTI sized. Maybe it's Focus hatch sized, I dunno, but point is, it's small and a Kia and $60k plus.

A GTi is a $32-40k car, I don't expect it to have 600hp. It also doesn't weigh nearly 5000 pounds like the ev6. My point was, a small hatchback EV from KIA is $60k. That's a LOT of money for a Kia. If it was $40k, ok, sure, I can see the value prop. But who in their right mind is gonna spend $60k on a freaking Kia?

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by W///

No he's not, that's the whole point of this thread rather than EV's in general. The discussion is regarding this Renault, and when I look on the UK configurator, the mid-range comes out to 27K British Pounds.

A Honda Jazz Hybrid in the UK for the most basic model starts at 27K British Pounds as well. A base Golf with a 1.5L engine is also the same price.

I realize they're not 1:1, but at least this EV is on the same planet price wise as a comparable ICE. Between how they're priced, the cool and interesting design, features, I'd say this is compelling. Again, this is not to replace everyone's Mclaren.

You guys are getting absolutely mugged for your cars. We apparently don't get the base Golf anymore, but we do get the Jetta, and it starts at $21k here. I dunno what the USD to pounds conversion is these days, but it feels like you're paying a lot for those cars.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I saw an EV6 today and it looked to be very much GTI sized. Maybe it's Focus hatch sized, I dunno, but point is, it's small and a Kia and $60k plus.

Let's look at numbers then, nice and empircal

Source: Edminds.com, comparing a 2024 EV6 Wind, to a 2024 VW GTI
Kia EV6/VW GTI
Cargo Space: 24.4Cu.Ft., 19.9Cu.Ft.
Front Headroom: 39in, 38.5in
Front leg room: 42.4in, 41.2in
Front shoulder Room: 57.8in, 55.9in
Rear Head Room: 38.0in, 38.1in
Rear Leg room: 39in, 35in
Rear shoulder room: 55.6in, 53.9in

In almost all metric, the Kia wins in size measurements though, and GTI only squeaks it out by 0.1" in rear headroom, in exchange you gain 4" of legroom in the Kia
If you aren't looking at the top spec GT, they are closer in price than you may think otherwise.

I will agree even at 45k for the EV6 Wind, Kia is still pricey but today's Kias aren't the same as the ones from the past either.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I saw an EV6 today and it looked to be very much GTI sized. Maybe it's Focus hatch sized, I dunno, but point is, it's small and a Kia and $60k plus.

A GTi is a $32-40k car, I don't expect it to have 600hp. It also doesn't weigh nearly 5000 pounds like the ev6. My point was, a small hatchback EV from KIA is $60k. That's a LOT of money for a Kia. If it was $40k, ok, sure, I can see the value prop. But who in their right mind is gonna spend $60k on a freaking Kia?

The styling makes it look like a much smaller car than it actually is. It's roughly the size of an X3 in exterior dimensions. Has more leg room in both front and back, but less head room and cargo room because of the seat position and lower ceiling.

You're also quoting the price for the most expensive trim of the car in question. The Kia EV6 starts at 42K (before discounts and subsidies).

Also sounds like you're stuck in the past. Kia and Hyundai have stepped up their game.

[AmuroRay]

People who like Evs are on my ignore list.

"perfect car to drive around"

The Toyota Corolla exist, is reliable, looks good, is cheap and isn't French. Oh, and it's not a giant Iphone on wheels.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

People who like Evs are on my ignore list.

"perfect car to drive around"

The Toyota Corolla exist, is reliable, looks good, is cheap and isn't French. Oh, and it's not a giant Iphone on wheels.

Horses for courses.

Driving an ICE sports car in stop and go traffic is less than rewarding. It also exposes it to excess wear and tear, risk of fender benders, etc. Keeping that car in the garage to come out in nice weather, outside of boring stop-and-go commutes maximizes the fun vs wear and tear.

ICE MT sports car. ICE road trip car. EV commuter. I'll never get rid of my ICE MT sports car, I'll always have one. Also, not going to get rid of an ICE road trip vehicle. But I'm also open-minded enough to appreciate that a dirt cheap leased EV is a much better regional commuter vehicle than any ICE will ever be.

[XutvJet]

Conceptually, I think it's perfect and it is what the masses probably really want and need for an around the town daily. It's fairly roomy, reasonable price (less than $30K), not overweight (less than 3,100lbs), no excessive tech fluff which seems to dominate EVs, useful power (0-60 in the high 7s), decent range (250 miles), well packaged EV drive system setup, etc. I think an EV like this makes by far the most sense and I've been calling for an EV like this for over 10 years now. Automakers need to get on board with making EVs like this and get away from the trucks, 500hp+ EV cars, and such. You need to make them affordable and serviceable.

Hate EVs all you want, but they are part of automotive future. I do not see myself owning one, but I certainly see their place in much of the driving we do, even in the US.

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by NSXR

I think you're forgetting how many older people there are in the population, and how tied to memory and freedom vehicles are. I agree with you technically, but there is a whole lot of dreaming you're missing. Did you happen to catch Barrett Jackson Scottsdale this past week? People pay MILLIONS of dollars (billions in total) every year to go back, not forward. This is something that can't be swept under the rug.

I do agree that the guys wanting a manual transmission Z4 with great handling, great sound, etc are a shrinking population, but the guys loving ICE will be around as long as their memory lasts.

Totally agree. Just like the car audio in the 80, they are way way better than the nowadays touch screen.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

You're neglecting cost.

Reality is the benefit that EVs have is government subsidies, and companies selling them at a loss. If they were priced at their true costs, nobody would buy them.

It isn't charging that's the issue, it's cost. A Kia EV6 GT is like $62k for a freaking Kia that's GTI sized. The EV9 that's basically a $50k Telluride alternative is $78k.

Tesla makes a profit on their vehicles and a Model 3 starts at like $42k WITHOUT tax credit and a Model Y at around $45k WITHOUT tax credit. So not only can it be done, it has been done. Plus IMO they are better than a $60k Kia anyways.

However you are right as far as other EVs. They are way too expensive, but with the subsidies and ridiculous incentives by the manufacturers they are still a great deal... right now. Probably no sustainable to do that forever, will have to bring price down and start making a profit at some point like Tesla did.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Culture is irrelevant, sort out charging and EV's explode,

Possibly not the best phrasing.

Re the Renault this isn’t the performance version of the car. It’s just a nice stylish commuter car. I don’t understand why EV commuter cars need to accelerate so fast anyhow. What’s the point?

The forthcoming Alpine version looks tasty.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Conceptually, I think it's perfect and it is what the masses probably really want and need for an around the town daily. It's fairly roomy, reasonable price (less than $30K), not overweight (less than 3,100lbs), no excessive tech fluff which seems to dominate EVs, useful power (0-60 in the high 7s), decent range (250 miles), well packaged EV drive system setup, etc. I think an EV like this makes by far the most sense and I've been calling for an EV like this for over 10 years now. Automakers need to get on board with making EVs like this and get away from the trucks, 500hp+ EV cars, and such. You need to make them affordable and serviceable.

Hate EVs all you want, but they are part of automotive future. I do not see myself owning one, but I certainly see their place in much of the driving we do, even in the US.

You make good points, and I've never understood why EV need sub 4-second 0 - 60 times to legitimize their existence. And even at the beginning. The idea of EV is to concerve energy and pollute less. All these super-fast EV are antithetical to the message and the environmental meme.

GM already made this EV. The Bolt siblings were rationally powered, rationally ranged, rationally sized, reasonably sculpted, and reasonably priced. Apparently they didn't sell in volume to be profitable. Ford says its Skunkworks EV is going to be smaller and affordable, I just have to question if it will sell. The Bolt(s) didn't. One deterrent of the Bolt was it recharged slowly at DCFC. Go on any EV forum and you'll find charging speed, and range of over 200 miles are immaterial to ownership. All EV owners say recharging overnight and waking up with a full battery is bliss, yet the owners all say they use the car daily well UNDER the range limits, so it's no big deal. So why didn't the Bolt sell?

I think most of the US market wants 400 miles with a DCFC recharge in 5 minutes. EV are never going to hit those metrics.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dfox

Horses for courses.

Driving an ICE sports car in stop and go traffic is less than rewarding. It also exposes it to excess wear and tear, risk of fender benders, etc. Keeping that car in the garage to come out in nice weather, outside of boring stop-and-go commutes maximizes the fun vs wear and tear.

ICE MT sports car. ICE road trip car. EV commuter. I'll never get rid of my ICE MT sports car, I'll always have one. Also, not going to get rid of an ICE road trip vehicle. But I'm also open-minded enough to appreciate that a dirt cheap leased EV is a much better regional commuter vehicle than any ICE will ever be.

I have a Ice commuter - an EV would add nothing for me besides a higher cost and zero serviceability and longevity

[KevinC]

If such a thing actually exists, I can assure you it isn’t French.