[evanevery]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I appreciate the explanation, but it didn't answer the last part of my question which was "Why can’t America?" Why can't America change and start developing their own industry?

Quite simply: Because Americans won't work for the same low wages as labor in other countries. (Period, End of sentence)

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Quite simply: Because Americans won't work for the same low wages as labor in other countries. (Period, End of sentence)

But europeans don't work for low wages.

[chicagofan00]

Originally Posted by Skilly

It does, but I think you missed it:

1. The can
2. it would take an entire shift in policy (not tariffs) and measurements of success - worker protections; training; capital investments; government participation.
3. This shift would take years and reduce profit (their current focus); and new administrations can destroy it all with an executive order (see the current admin). The US, with great examples happening in real-time, is untrustworthy for long term investment like this.
4. The US system is too short term in their thinking

With the current state of affairs (relative to labor, resources, etc.) I’d say it will take at least a decade, if not more, to even start to begin making any sizeable shift. And like you stated, that is at least 3 different presidential terms (that is if we are allowed to still elect another president after this current one! ) where the sentiment to continue the push for this going forward remains in place and isn’t undone.

[Crazy1323]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I appreciate the explanation, but it didn't answer the last part of my question which was "Why can’t America?" Why can't America change and start developing their own industry?

Good or bad, the US is also a very litigious society. This makes manufacturing/industry here very expensive here. That would take a cultural shift almost more than policy shift.

[evanevery]

If you could wave a magic wand and instantly create more factories, there still wouldn't be anyone willing to work in them for "Globally Competitive Wages"

We are a nation of consumers - not producers...

[Skilly]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Quite simply: Because Americans won't work for the same low wages as labor in other countries. (Period, End of sentence)

This is just a wildly incorrect statement.

Europeans dont have low wages. Moreover, they have access to healthcare, workers protections, paid leave, vacations, and they are well trained.

Even China is outsourcing its own low cost labor now to other countries.

[Stealth7]

This:

"Quite simply: Because Americans won't work for the same low wages as labor in other countries. (Period, End of sentence)"

Everything else is hot air.

Cost of living, standard of living, litigation, cultural values, etc. This will never change.

Instead, expect to see more automation from fast food kiosks to factories.

[EUPremier]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Not that I care either way, because I think this all a farce. But to say it can’t happen or doesn’t work - why do EU countries have a robust manufacturing industry? Why can’t America?

Skilly gave a great answer to this but to home in on two factors:

1. American culture is a large reason why …it’s all about striving to be so successful as to achieve or exceed the ‘American Dream’ …and it’s sink or swim.
2. Allied to point one… America has a very poor wealth distribution system. Such a system is better known by a three-letter word: Tax. Individual taxes are far higher in the EU.

While taxpayer money could be always be spent better it is used to provide a social safety net to prevent people falling into poverty and to ensure all kids get a fair crack of the whip when it comes to education.
Education enables people to succeed and ends cyclical poverty.
University attendees do not leave saddled with huge debts in the EU.
Our healthcare systems vary by country but the EHIC (European Health Insurance Card) system assures cover in every country for every citizen at little or no cost. (Optional private cover runs alongside the State-provided services and generally-speaking, speeds elective treatment but medical emergencies are dealt with based on medical necessity rather than how much cash you have in the bank and you don’t get billed for ambulances etc.
So, while no system is perfect, we have good state services which are free or low cost… paid for by high-taxes.

I can’t see Republicans getting behind that model, can you? So, that’s why America can’t …people can’t afford to work lower-paid jobs.

[Skilly]

Originally Posted by Stealth7

This:

"Quite simply: Because Americans won't work for the same low wages as labor in other countries. (Period, End of sentence)"

Everything else is hot air.

Cost of living, standard of living, litigation, cultural values, etc. This will never change.

Instead, expect to see more automation from fast food kiosks to factories.

Can't tell if you are cynical, don't know how well Europeans live compared to the US, lack an understanding of our system of capitalism, or you're questioning the work ethics of the average US citizen.

Many Europeans live quite well, but if your perspective is shaped solely by U.S. media, you might think otherwise. We get a steady dose of medicine that says if you aren't winning, it's your own fault! But, most Americans aren’t lazy — so what’s going on?

We rely heavily on the “American Dream” to justify the system, and questioning it is often framed as unpatriotic. The harsh reality? That dream is out of reach for 80% of the country. Meanwhile, the policies that keep people down are often sold as “good for America,” and many accept them without question. Most are brainwashed or just dont know well enough.

We wont work for low wages? Well, the median personal income in the U.S. is around $62K, so it would seem low wages aren't stopping us. I'd reframe the “Americans won’t work for low wages”. Really, it’s that businesses refuse to pay living wages. The EU not only pays living wages but also covers costs like universal healthcare. Revisiting the US mean income, particularly the lower half - they can expect to use 34% of their earnings for healthcare alone! So again, low wages aren't what is stopping factories to staff people.

Over simplifying the problem is what we do best. Because we are TERRIBLE at looking in the mirror to find the problem. In the U.S., we’ve normalized punching down — and too often, those who make it to the top, put on the gloves, turn around, and do the same. Most of all it distracts from the system having any responsibility.

Tariffs are the latest example of a giant punch down moment. It's an unprecedented cash grab from US citizens. Those that are going to be most impacted aren't most of us on here trying to navigate our $130K car purchase. It's the people outside of that bubble. Just wait till the $5.8T tax cut comes for the wealthy...one guess where we are going to recover that money from.

[agstrick]

Have a '26 G90 with individual paint, wk 21 production. Sales manager has no information on anything after may. Of course, it will all likely change from the administration at least 15 times before then.

[dbru]

Gonna be honest, not a single one of us here can say what's going to happen next with increases based on tariffs. If you believe 100% in what your dealership is telling you I have a plot of swamp land for you. Be real, in this scenario they will tell you whatever will comfort you most. Unless it's in writing don't buy it.

Honest two pennies.

[supershaft]

Originally Posted by soulsea

What tariffs?

I mean at this point today it's a fair question if not an outright joke considering the clown walked back his own official tariff exemptions over the weekend as fake news. lmao

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Skilly

...We wont work for low wages? Well, the median personal income in the U.S. is around $62K, so it would seem low wages aren't stopping us....

Hmm, so you think that USD $62K/year is considered "low wages"?

This is a pretty good illustration of how our own ignorance of the global economy is a big part of this problem...

The average annual income in China is less than $16K/year and they generally work many more hours per week to achieve that...

[Salespunk]

Going from memory, earning $60K puts you in the top 1% of wage earners globally. Having a net worth over $5K puts you in the top 10% of wealth globally.

So yes, on average Americans will not accept the low wages required for product assembly jobs. Setting up those factories would take close to a decade and we would also have to import the workers, ie immigration. We simply do not have enough people in the US to fill those seats. Finally the price increases necessary to pay workers even minimum wage would require massive increases in retail costs and likely lower the standard of living in US since it would lead to inflation.

So none of this will increase wages in the US, despite what factory workers in the midwest have been told by their grandparents. Those jobs are gone and never coming back.

Next question is whether we need to move critical supply chains onshore or near shore? Yes absolutely. We should not be putting chips from southeast Asia into defense weapons as an example. Critical drug ingredients is another big area that needs to be looked into. There are a lot of other places where we need to be looking at bringing manufacturing back to North America, specifically Mexico where we can get to those supply lines no matter what happens globally.

Overall it is important to remember the context that the current global system was created under. At the end of WWII the big concern was containing Russia and limiting the rearmament of Germany and Japan. We agreed to patrol the global waterways and secure Western Europe in exchange for countries leaning towards democracy and Germany/Japan not rearming.

Last thing to think about is the news headline of trade imbalances which focus on goods. This does not capture services imbalances which are typically higher value/margin and opposite of goods. We export services (high value/wages) and import goods (low value/wages).

[Skilly]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Hmm, so you think that USD $62K/year is considered "low wages"?

This is a pretty good illustration of how our own ignorance of the global economy is a big part of this problem...

The average annual income in China is less than $16K/year and they generally work many more hours per week to achieve that...

Oh boy...just for fun let's pull on that thread.

While the average cost of living can vary in China in a big metropolitan city like Shanghai it's around 800 bucks. In smaller cites that might be closer to 600.00. The average cost of living in the US is $6,400 per month. See how that works?

I agree about your example of ignorance tho - thanks for it!

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Skilly

Oh boy...just for fun let's pull on that thread.

While the average cost of living can vary in China in a big metropolitan city like Shanghai it's around 800 bucks. In smaller cites that might be closer to 600.00. The average cost of living in the US is $6,400 per month. See how that works?

I agree about your example of ignorance tho - thanks for it!

So, you are basically explaining WHY wages are so low in other countries?

Thanks for helping identify WHY we can't simply build factories here and expect to compete at the same level!

So, yeah, I understand exactly how that works. I actually started and own(ed) a couple of companies that rely on Asian exports and business partners. I used to travel to China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan a couple of times every year. I've been to the Chinese and Taiwanese factories owned and operated by my business partners. I've spent time in both Schenzen and Guan Dong visiting these facilities who were making components for my companies. I've eaten in the factory cafeterias with the workers and I've seen their accommodations.

So, yeah, I see how that works... First Hand, actually...

[Skilly]

Originally Posted by evanevery

So, you are basically explaining WHY wages are so low in other countries?

Thanks for helping identify WHY we can't simply build factories here and expect to compete at the same level!

So, yeah, I understand exactly how that works. I actually started and own(ed) a couple of companies that rely on Asian exports and business partners. I used to travel to China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan a couple of times every year. I've been to the Chinese and Taiwanese factories owned and operated by my business partners. I've spent time in both Schenzen and Guan Dong visiting these facilities who were making components for my companies.

So, yeah, I see how that works... First Hand, actually...

You said "Quite simply: Because Americans won't work for the same low wages as labor in other countries. (Period, End of sentence)" to explain why we dont have on shore manufacturing. Then, you explained my reference to US mean income was high and then compare it to the average income in China. Not sure of the point you are making unless it was an overly simplistic view saying we wont work for $16K a year. Which makes no sense.

Let me be clearer though, that might help. The U.S. system as a whole is not designed to sustain large-scale manufacturing. Wages are just one part of the equation—not the sole reason.

China’s holistic economic structure is the core reason why we trade with them (and other similar economies). Low wages are often cited, but they only tell part of the story. In China, wages for construction, transportation, energy, and even leadership roles are all aligned with the lower cost of living. Their system is built to support low-margin manufacturing. And, they keep their profit margins in line with B2B contracts...large ones.

Isolating wages and factoring in cost of living, a Chinese worker—despite earning what we would consider a low wage would typically end up with more disposable income than the average U.S. worker. That only works because their broader economic and policy infrastructure makes it possible.

They also haven't (until now) used this as a way to cripple our own import/export economy and sell direct. They have some means (Aliexpress, Ebay etc) but largely they have aligned with large global brands and let them add their logos and final packaging and mark up to sell to the consumer. The relationship for the most part has worked.

This trade war has the gloves off. Now they are producing videos directed at consumers on how they can get, furniture, clothing, car parts, luxury items directly at a fraction of the cost, by cutting out the middle man. Even 300% tariffs are still a deal for the consumer looking these products. All this will do is cripple the wholesaler and brands that rely on this system.

Wages alone as the reason, is just an overly simplistic view.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Skilly

Not sure of the point you are making unless it was an overly simplistic view saying we wont work for $16K a year. Which makes no sense.

Yes, in fact, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. I'm not sure why you don't think that makes any sense?

Why would foreign (or domestic) companies build a factory in the US if they couldn't produce products at globally competitive prices (because of things like uncompetitive labor costs)? This is why many domestic companies offshore their production in the first place...

...or do you think its OK to be taxed 125% more for everything we buy just so it can be made and sold ONLY in the USA?

[Stealth7]

[QUOTE=Salespunk;32010570]Going from memory, earning $60K puts you in the top 1% of wage earners globally. Having a net worth over $5K puts you in the top 10% of wealth globally.

So yes, on average Americans will not accept the low wages required for product assembly jobs. Setting up those factories would take close to a decade and we would also have to import the workers, ie immigration. We simply do not have enough people in the US to fill those seats. Finally the price increases necessary to pay workers even minimum wage would require massive increases in retail costs and likely lower the standard of living in US since it would lead to inflation.

So none of this will increase wages in the US, despite what factory workers in the midwest have been told by their grandparents. Those jobs are gone and never coming back.

Next question is whether we need to move critical supply chains onshore or near shore? Yes absolutely. We should not be putting chips from southeast Asia into defense weapons as an example. Critical drug ingredients is another big area that needs to be looked into. There are a lot of other places where we need to be looking at bringing manufacturing back to North America, specifically Mexico where we can get to those supply lines no matter what happens globally.

Overall it is important to remember the context that the current global system was created under. At the end of WWII the big concern was containing Russia and limiting the rearmament of Germany and Japan. We agreed to patrol the global waterways and secure Western Europe in exchange for countries [...]

Excellent post!

I think I heard the auto tariffs are being reevaluated now.

Finally, it is probably not realistic to require third and second world Nations, or smaller or poorer Nations to purchase the same amount of goods from us as we purchase from them.

Let's hope it all works out on a reasonable basis!

[Stealth7]

Shein: Inside the Chinese factories fuelling the company's success
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdrylgvr77jo

From BBC today-- less than a dollar in labor to the worker for a t-shirt

[Skilly]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Yes, in fact, that's EXACTLY what I was saying. I'm not sure why you don't think that makes any sense?

Why would foreign (or domestic) companies build a factory in the US if they couldn't produce products at globally competitive prices (because of things like uncompetitive labor costs)? This is why many domestic companies offshore their production in the first place...

...or do you think its OK to be taxed 125% more for everything we buy just so it can be made and sold ONLY in the USA?

If I cut through it all, we are actually saying the same thing. I completely agree with your stance that mfg in the US makes no sense. I think Im focused on the why more holistically, and you are focused on the punchline.

You aren't wrong about the wage. Truthfully, I actually think the wage would have to be LOWER than China to be competitive because manufacturing is so capital intense and that capital cost is so much higher in the US. I just think leaving it as wage only lets the system pretend US people are the problem, and they aren't.

Even if Tariffs double from what they are today for Chinese goods, they would still outbid our capabilities to manufacture in the US!

[Skilly]

Originally Posted by Stealth7

Shein: Inside the Chinese factories fuelling the company's success
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdrylgvr77jo

From BBC today-- less than a dollar in labor to the worker for a t-shirt

Lulu Lemon knows this well