[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by NSXR

Yes, you got me, 100% made up on the spot because of a secret agenda.




Well that's what people do when they make things up on the spot. No one has ever heard of increased engine wear upon start-up.



There is no need to get upset, we simply have a difference of opinion based on different experiences.

haha … this is the reason both of these guys are on my Ignore list.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by Mech Spec

Who's upset? I'm making fun of you.

I understand, in the absence of being able to see it from my perspective that was your only option. Not that you care, but I won't hold it against you.

I checked out your build thread, looks like you've got some great plans for your car and aren't afraid to get your hands dirty. Well done.

[Mech Spec]

Originally Posted by NSXR

I understand, in the absence of being able to see it from my perspective that was your only option. Not that you care, but I won't hold it against you.

I checked out your build thread, looks like you've got some great plans for your car and aren't afraid to get your hands dirty. Well done.

It's not that I can't see it from your perspective, it's that your perspective is conjecture. You still cant actually provide any evidence that cylinder walls experience excess wear from start-stop restarts


And like I said, number of start-stop activations is inversely proportional to number of miles driven. Any car that actually reaches 200k+ miles in the next 10-15 years either was a commercial vehicle or was driven mostly on the highway.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by Mech Spec

It's not that I can't see it from your perspective, it's that your perspective is conjecture. You still cant actually provide any evidence that cylinder walls experience excess wear from start-stop restarts


And like I said, number of start-stop activations is inversely proportional to number of miles driven. Any car that actually reaches 200k+ miles in the next 10-15 years either was a commercial vehicle or was driven mostly on the highway.

You make good points.

If one was concerned about cylinder wall (and ring/piston) wear with auto stop/start enabled one can only imagine the concern for the engine internals when subjected to a cold start after hours since last running.

I have driven a number of cars to 150K miles and beyond, one to 317K miles. And this one in 16 years. While none were equipped with auto stop/start they certainly were subject to cold engine starts. From 0F to triple digits. No engine manifested any issues from the high number of engine starts or even just the high number of miles and run time.

Auto stop/start has the advantage of starting a hot engine at most a few minutes after it was shut down. Also the engine controller knows which cylinder is at a suitable position to complete a full intake/compression stroke and thus likely fire when sparked (and fueled). Other cylinders do not receive any fuel nor any spark. All it takes is one cylinder to fire and the rest quickly follow. So prolonged cranking is not necessary.

Will add that even though there has been a expressed concern about auto stop/start and its possible negative effect on the engine there doesn't appear to be flood of posts of owners with sick engines arising from the use of auto stop/start.

From my work on automotive test equipment devices that collect engine and vehicle telemetry non-commercial passenger vehicles spend a considerable time idling. Testing with various brands/models of vehicles here and in Europe I also had these devices in all my cars from 2003 to 2017. Even though I had a 60 mile a day almost all highway commute it was surprising how many minutes of the trip the engine spent idling.

Short trips were ever worse. Often the engine spent as much time idling as it spend running above idle.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

If one was concerned about cylinder wall (and ring/piston) wear with auto stop/start enabled one can only imagine the concern for the engine internals when subjected to a cold start after hours since last running.

It is a concern, specifically over 80% concern.

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

I have driven a number of cars to 150K miles and beyond, while none were equipped with auto stop/start...

Then you're speculating.

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Auto stop/start has the advantage of starting a hot engine at most a few minutes after it was shut down. Also the engine controller knows which cylinder is at a suitable position to complete a full intake/compression stroke and thus likely fire when sparked (and fueled). Other cylinders do not receive any fuel nor any spark. All it takes is one cylinder to fire and the rest quickly follow. So prolonged cranking is not necessary.

This is true, but not all start/stop systems are the same.

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Will add that even though there has been a expressed concern about auto stop/start and its possible negative effect on the engine there doesn't appear to be flood of posts of owners with sick engines arising from the use of auto stop/start.

Start/stop technology is still relatively new, and unfortunately has been combined with manufacturers suggesting the use of thinner oils, longer change intervals, and start/stop technology. The difficulty isn't in finding that these things are detrimental, it's in separating which one has the worst impact. My vote goes to the oil used, and the change interval, but that's only because start/stop technology isn't old enough to really see what damage it will cause.

[freakystyly]

It's been around long enough to manifest issues if there were any major ones. IMO anyways.

Most brands have had it in most/all models for 9+ years. Toyota invented it in their flagship Crown back in the 1970s...

It's coded off on my car and wont be missed, even riding passenger in cars with it on is annoying.

[BWBike]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

. . . even riding passenger in cars with it on is annoying.

Yes it is!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by NSXR

Rebuild enough engines and you'll understand why.

No sense in arguing about it, time will tell this story quite clearly.

I've driven about 1.6M miles in my lifetime on about 12 cars. Just on BMWs, of the 5 I've owned, just over 1M total miles. The average miles on those BMWs is 219,000 miles an 19 years average in age. I've never HAD to rebuild an engine. Nearly every car I've owned has reached a 150,000 mile milestone at a minimum.

If you are saying you've rebuilt a lot of engines that have cylinder wall damage because it came out of a car that has an ASS system, then post the data. ASS systems have not been prevalent in the US market until the last 5 years or so. There can be a good argument made regarding starter wear and increased battery replacements, but ASS causing premature engine wear is hard to defend. Just post the data that shows an increase in engine rebuilds in the last 5 years since ASS has become a US market standard.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If you are saying you've rebuilt a lot of engines that have cylinder wall damage because it came out of a car that has an ASS system, then post the data.

I don't have data to post. I figured that would be clear by now. But in my particular business I deal with engine builders on a daily basis, and what they are seeing isn't up for debate. But as I said, time will tell this story. It took the Radium Girls at least a decade to die, so give it a bit on start/stop technology.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Mech Spec

It's not that I can't see it from your perspective, it's that your perspective is conjecture.

Bingo!

Originally Posted by NSXR

I don't have data to post. I figured that would be clear by now.

Indeed.
Like we are all saying - you are way too confident jumping to conclusions absent of hard data.

In the science - we call that making sh*t up.
On social media it's called - an influencer!

Originally Posted by NSXR

I deal with engine builders on a daily basis, and what they are seeing isn't up for debate.

That's the missing bit - we have no idea what "they" are seeing. It could be a YouTube channel, a Muppet show, or a blown engine.

Then again, the fact that engine rebuilders see blown engines is as surprising as doctors seeing sick patients. That's just a confirmation of self-selection bias. What matters is verifiable data on what caused the problem in the first place, not the fact that some engines go bad or some humans get sick.

Then again, if your ambition is to be an influencer, then don't let the facts get in the way of your argument!

Cheers!
a

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Dude, I was driving a big block V8 before you were born!!

Why'd you quit being cool then? Lol

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by NSXR

I don't have data to post. I figured that would be clear by now. But in my particular business I deal with engine builders on a daily basis, and what they are seeing isn't up for debate. But as I said, time will tell this story. It took the Radium Girls at least a decade to die, so give it a bit on start/stop technology.

The data should be easy to obtain. Since ASS systems are relatively new to the US market and only mandated for the EU in 2022 with a implementation date of July 2024, it should be easy to pick out what cars have failed engines at relatively low miles correlated to ASS systems in those cars. There shouldn't be that many, so the cause of failure should be obvious. And the data should skew towards owners who live in large metropolitan areas that have a lot of stop-and-go traffic and a street grid system of lots of intersections with traffic lights and stop signs.

Until some one can post such data, it's just conjecture.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by NSXR

How about I answer that question with a question.

How many engines have you rebuilt?

What does that have to do with this discussion or the topic????
None, to answer your question but have done the research and have multiple engineering degrees and 29 years of industry experience including very close work in Automotive industry and have never heard the crap you are claiming from any of them. Hence, asking you for the link to read up on that.
Your opinion is as worthless as mine on this topic.

[Efthreeoh]

It's funny. I have a 2022 Bronco with ASS. The defeat switch is right on the dash level with the manual shift knob, so my habit has been to hit the switch off when I hand the shift knob at first shift. But sometimes I forget. I drive the Bronco maybe once a week, so it's hard to lock into the habit to hit the defeat button. But the funny part is, unless the battery is fully charged or the AC is on, the ASS does not activate, so most of the time the Bronco doesn't shut off when I drive it. Also, in my neck of the woods, there is little traffic and few stop lights or stop signs and with clutch-in in 1st gear the ASS doesn't activate.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by NSXR

It is a concern, specifically over 80% concern.



Then you're speculating.



This is true, but not all start/stop systems are the same.



Start/stop technology is still relatively new, and unfortunately has been combined with manufacturers suggesting the use of thinner oils, longer change intervals, and start/stop technology. The difficulty isn't in finding that these things are detrimental, it's in separating which one has the worst impact. My vote goes to the oil used, and the change interval, but that's only because start/stop technology isn't old enough to really see what damage it will cause.

Who's speculating?

Even if there differences in its implementation auto stop/start has been in a number of vehicles for years. Think it first appeared in the mid 1970s. Thus there are uncountable miles of driving and auto stop/start doing its thing and there have been no signs of any issues with the feature.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

It's coded off on my car and wont be missed, even riding passenger in cars with it on is annoying.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a 2022 Bronco with ASS. [...]I drive the Bronco maybe once a week, so it's hard to lock into the habit to hit the defeat button. [...] there is little traffic and few stop lights or stop signs and with clutch-in in 1st gear the ASS doesn't activate.

Just drove F80 last night, and for some weird reason ASS was enabled. It's usually turned off, because either I had coded the car that way or it defaults to off after an ignition cycle.

Long story short, I actually enjoyed the peace and quiet at the stop light. Imagine that!

I'm not sure if ASS saves a meaningful amount of gas, and there is zero evidence it adds any wear to the engine (some to the starter, but its beefed up for that), but listening to engine idling at a stop light is not all THAT enjoyable.
Full throttle - sure.
Idling - meah.

I'm keeping ASS ON for the next few days to see if I change my mind.

YMMV,
a

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Thus there are uncountable miles of driving and auto stop/start doing its thing and there have been no signs of any issues with the feature.

There is no way for you to know this unless you know of every vehicle on earth that has had the technology and have a list of everything that has gone wrong with it, and have evidenced that it couldn't have been caused by S/S technology.

I'm content to let the world use the start/stop feature on their vehicle, but I personally won't be using it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by NSXR

There is no way for you to know this unless you know of every vehicle on earth that has had the technology and have a list of everything that has gone wrong with it, and have evidenced that it couldn't have been caused by S/S technology.

I'm content to let the world use the start/stop feature on their vehicle, but I personally won't be using it.

I am too, but I have no reason to not use it because of imagined premature piston ring/cylinder wall and starter wear. I just find the system to be annoying.

And if one is a motorcyclist, Rule 1 at a stop light is keep the engine running and the transmission in 1st gear with an exit strategy in case some dumbass isn't paying attention. For me, it just translates over to any vehicle I'm driving.

[M5Rick]

Stop start was designed to cut down on gasses at traffic stand still, when brake is released oil pressure is instantaneous and the engine doesn't wear out prematurely because of this. As far as starter motor is concerned it is designed to work with the start/stop and won't just wear out like that.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Stop start was designed to cut down on gasses at traffic stand still, when brake is released oil pressure is instantaneous and the engine doesn't wear out prematurely because of this. As far as starter motor is concerned it is designed to work with the start/stop and won't just wear out like that.

Good to see you mate.

[DrVenture]

This devolved from claimed factuality to anecdotal opinion pretty quickly.

it is a pretty decent example of (not) knowing when to stop trying to prove an unsupportable allegation. Hence, entertaining and informative, both.