[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by alex2364

So it will sell here because it did well in China?

No, it will sell here because the A3 sells well here. And so does the CLA, and so will the upcoming A Class sedan. In other words, there is a market for this car in the US because small luxury cars are desirable here. And no, people don't care which direction the engine under their hood is mounted, especially if it is connected to all four wheels.

[jmg]

FWD?

Can we just get a M2 GC?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Dude, you definitely know how to dig a hole deeper

Yes I personally like to hand them the shovel.

[3rdcoast228i]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

No, it will sell here because the A3 sells well here. And so does the CLA, and so will the upcoming A Class sedan. In other words, there is a market for this car in the US because small luxury cars are desirable here. And no, people don't care which direction the engine under their hood is mounted, especially if it is connected to all four wheels.

Disagree, somewhat... RWD at a reasonable price is one of the main reasons I bought the 228i over other cars on the market. I realize I'm probably in minority though, and your probably right, a lot of people don't care.

Sad though, I think a small RWD sedan based on the 2 series would be awesome.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i

Disagree, somewhat... RWD at a reasonable price is one of the main reasons I bought the 228i over other cars on the market. I realize I'm probably in minority though, and your probably right, a lot of people don't care.

Sad though, I think a small RWD sedan based on the 2 series would be awesome.

Sure, no doubt enthusiasts like you and I absolutely do care. But, just as you say, we are in the minority. And let's be honest - it is a small minority when compared to the automobile market at large.

Furthermore, suppose for a moment that you were paid to participate in a study where you handed over they keys to your 228i and you were given an Audi TT to drive for a month. Would you really hate it? Ok, maybe you would. So let's sweeten the pot. After the first week, you get to move up to a TTS instead. A little less painful, no? Still miss the 228i? Ok, fair enough, for the last two weeks, you get a TT RS. Just like this one:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1419535

Can't possibly be boring, right? Dare I say fun, even? Then, if at the end of the month they surprise you and tell you that you can keep the TT RS, do you honestly want to go back?

Now, you may be quick to point out that I'm comparing your 228i with about 240hp to a TT RS with 400hp. And moreover, there's a huge price difference to go with that power increase. You'd be right of course, but my point is, if we are saying the wrong-wheel-drive car truly isn't acceptable then it shouldn't matter how well it can be made to perform. Right?

[positiveions]

Blasphemy: BMW fwd

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by positiveions

Blasphemy: BMW fwd

Yeah, the same way that blasphemy = anything but a 4-cylinder motor. I mean, jeez: the BMW AG HQ building's architecture is based on the 4-cylinder archetype!

Please read this R&T article from 2015. It is sage, and it is from an enthusiast's perspective.

And finally ... I've said this many, many times before on this forum: The U.S. market does not matter much to BMW, and the enthusiast market does not matter much to BMW except for marketing purposes. Accept that BMW is a global brand (and one of the strongest, according to some measures) and not fixated on the U.S. -- or Europe, for that matter -- and you'll understand almost every decision it makes. You may not like those decisions, but they are not stupid decisions.

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure, no doubt enthusiasts like you and I absolutely do care. But, just as you say, we are in the minority. And let's be honest - it is a small minority when compared to the automobile market at large.

This is old news, but back in 2010, former BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer told analysts that 80% of 1-series owners think their cars are FWD. But he later clarified it, turns out coupe owners knew better:

“It is true about 80 percent of the 1-series owners we surveyed either thought their car was front wheel drive or that they didn’t know the layout. But these were the drivers of the three and five-door hatchback models.”

“However, nearly all the owners of 1-series coupe models knew their car was rear-wheel drive. These buyers appreciate the driving dynamics of rear-drive. But for other owners they bought the 1-series because of the engineering and the quality and engine performance and so on.”


“This research has helped us to be confident that BMW can build front-drive cars in a new market segment. But the next 1-series, when it is launched in 18 months or so, will be rear-wheel drive, as will all the future variants.”

[MSups6]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yeah, the same way that blasphemy = anything but a 4-cylinder motor. I mean, jeez: the BMW AG HQ building's architecture is based on the 4-cylinder archetype!

Please read this R&T article from 2015. It is sage, and it is from an enthusiast's perspective.

And finally ... I've said this many, many times before on this forum: The U.S. market does not matter much to BMW, and the enthusiast market does not matter much to BMW except for marketing purposes. Accept that BMW is a global brand (and one of the strongest, according to some measures) and not fixated on the U.S. -- or Europe, for that matter -- and you'll understand almost every decision it makes. You may not like those decisions,[B] but they are not stupid decisions.[/B]

Ohh yahh the US market maters to them, a hell of a lot. There is no better market to sale expensive high profit margin suvs in. The cold hard truth is BMW just can't match Lexus in selling them. Nor Caddy Acura or Merc.

And they are all global brands. I don't even get that excuse you are attempting.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by MSups6

Ohh yahh the US market maters to them, a hell of a lot. There is no better market to sale expensive high profit margin suvs in. The cold hard truth is BMW just can't match Lexus in selling them. Nor Caddy Acura or Merc.

And they are all global brands. I don't even get that excuse you are attempting.

Sigh.

Pray tell, where else do those SUVs sell well? Answer: nowhere. That's why most are built in the U.S. There is no other viable market for them.

Now: Name me an automaker that has survived on building vehicles for one major open market. There are a few -- but they are all supported by a parent company that operates globally. (Example: Seat. Another: Vauxhall.) BMW has no such parent company.

Unlike your precious Xs, a FWD 1 Series has global appeal. Why else would Merc and Audi (and pretty much every other major automaker) -- both of whom also make SUVs for primarily the U.S. market -- be jumping on that bandwagon, even for NA?

Just don't even try, OK? That, or read up on macroeconomics.

[aerostar]

To be honest I like my 235i but I think it's seriously overpriced considering what I can get from a Golf R.

[seedyrom]

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jkoral

This is old news, but back in 2010, former BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer told analysts that 80% of 1-series owners think their cars are FWD. But he later clarified it, turns out coupe owners knew better:

Hence why we have strong evidence that the next generation 2 Series coupe (G42) and convertible (G43) will remain RWD, while the new 2 Series GC (F44) is confirmed to be FWD. Coupe and convertible buyers are largely enthusiasts, but the volume buyers want a four-door and they don't care that it will be on a FWD platform. This is especially the case when, as I say, once you send power to all four wheels it becomes less an issue if you have a good performance AWD system (which I am fully aware that not all vehicles have including all current - key word being *current* - UKL vehicles).

What about the enthusiast like me who wants a small RWD sedan with lots of power? Well, soon none will exist. The choices will be to accept the ever increasing size of the 3 Series platform (and its competitors) or to buy a smaller AWD vehicle like an RS3, CLA45 or A45 sedan (which is coming soon), or if BMW wakes up and decides to offer one, an F44-based M2GC or even an F52-based 1M (the latter basically having a zero percent chance of both existing and coming to the US).

[MSups6]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Sigh.

Pray tell, where else do those SUVs sell well? Answer: nowhere. That's why most are built in the U.S. There is no other viable market for them.

Now: Name me an automaker that has survived on building vehicles for one major open market. There are a few -- but they are all supported by a parent company that operates globally. (Example: Seat. Another: Vauxhall.) BMW has no such parent company.

Unlike your precious Xs, a FWD 1 Series has global appeal. Why else would Merc and Audi (and pretty much every other major automaker) -- both of whom also make SUVs for primarily the U.S. market -- be jumping on that bandwagon, even for NA?

Just don't even try, OK? That, or read up on macroeconomics.

Precious Xs lol. They can sale zero else where, US market is big enough and worth it. Well worth it when you are market leader like lexus, something BMW can only dream of.

Never said bmw's corolla lacks global appeal, but that thing will have razor thin margins even with bmw's typical fleecing people on bare necessities that they call options.

Tell me Mr expert, why does Porsche now have two suvs ? and not some 3 serious or competitor.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by MSups6

No rwd no buy, F off with this bs Bimmer.

More and more the ultimate poser machine.

+1 and if its not available in manual its a total loss. Nice paint though.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by MSups6

Precious Xs lol. They can sale zero else where, US market is big enough and worth it. Well worth it when you are market leader like lexus, something BMW can only dream of.

Never said bmw's corolla lacks global appeal, but that thing will have razor thin margins even with bmw's typical fleecing people on bare necessities that they call options.

Tell me Mr expert, why does Porsche now have two suvs ? and not some 3 serious or competitor.

Because unlike BMW:
- Porsche is not a high-volume global brand
- Porsche does not have a broad product lineup with mass global appeal
- Porsche could not survive without U.S. SUV sales because of that low volume
- Porsche has a parent company with deep pockets (VW AG)

I could go on. But you chose a really bad example because the economies of scale (and, thus, each's business model) between BMW and Porsche are vastly different from each other.

Oh, and speaking of Lexus (and Corollas, for that matter): You do realize that the only place in the world where the Lexus brand existed before 2005 was North America, right? And Lexus only achieved relative market equality on a global scale with BMW/Merc/Audi in the last three years? That means in the ensuing decade -- which included the Great Recession and the Japanese tsunami disaster -- the vast majority of its sales gains were seen outside of the U.S. It did that primarily with sales in Europe and China, neither of which is a strong SUV market.

Try again.

[MSups6]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Because unlike BMW:
- Porsche is not a high-volume global brand
- Porsche does not have a broad product lineup with mass global appeal
- Porsche could not survive without U.S. SUV sales because of that low volume
- Porsche has a parent company with deep pockets (VW AG)

I could go on. But you chose a really bad example because the economies of scale (and, thus, each's business model) between BMW and Porsche are vastly different from each other.

Oh, and speaking of Lexus (and Corollas, for that matter): You do realize that the only place in the world where the Lexus brand existed before 2005 was North America, right? And Lexus only achieved relative market equality on a global scale with BMW/Merc/Audi in the last three years? That means in the ensuing decade -- which included the Great Recession and the Japanese tsunami disaster -- the vast majority of its sales gains were seen outside of the U.S. It did that primarily with sales in Europe and China, neither of which is a strong SUV market.

Try again.

You haven't got a clue do you. No need to try. Facts.

2016 lexus Euro Sales
CT 8,412
IS 6,599
ES 2,299
GS 2,259
LS 156
RX 18,074
NX 26,105
RC 1,931
Other Models 8,481
Total Sales 74,316

NX and RX - 44,179
Total sales - 74,316

Their two SUV's accounted for 59.4% of their 2016 EUROPEAN sales. And much of their sales growth i might add.

As for China

"Lexus sales in China are up 27% year-over-year, with January-to-July 2017 sales totaling 71,564 units — from China Daily:
In the first seven months of the year, sales of the Lexus ES mid-sized sedan reached 31,947 vehicles in China, beating the US as the model’s largest single market. Meanwhile, Lexus sold 17,023 of its RX mid-sized SUV and 14,701 of its NX compact SUV."

RX and NX make up 44% of total Lexus Chinese sales for the year.

Can't wait for your incoming brilliant reply.

[seedyrom]

Sometimes I like to sit back and think, if people spent as much time and energy researching healthcare and solutions to socio-economic problems, as they do arguing on trivial matters on the internet, society would be so much better off.


As my wife once cut me down with during a rant: "If you are so much better than everyone else ... prove it"

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by MSups6

You haven't got a clue do you. No need to try. Facts.

2016 lexus Euro Sales
CT 8,412
IS 6,599
ES 2,299
GS 2,259
LS 156
RX 18,074
NX 26,105
RC 1,931
Other Models 8,481
Total Sales 74,316

NX and RX - 44,179
Total sales - 74,316

Their two SUV's accounted for 59.4% of their 2016 EUROPEAN sales. And much of their sales growth i might add.

As for China

"Lexus sales in China are up 27% year-over-year, with January-to-July 2017 sales totaling 71,564 units — from China Daily:
In the first seven months of the year, sales of the Lexus ES mid-sized sedan reached 31,947 vehicles in China, beating the US as the model’s largest single market. Meanwhile, Lexus sold 17,023 of its RX mid-sized SUV and 14,701 of its NX compact SUV."

RX and NX make up 44% of total Lexus Chinese sales for the year.

Can't wait for your incoming brilliant reply.

My reply is, in fact, brilliant: I stand corrected regarding Lexus SUV sales in China and Europe.

I'm still right regarding pretty much everything else, including my original point: The U.S. just doesn't matter much. If anything, those SUV figures support that. It's a global game -- particularly for BMW, which is a fraction of the size of any other luxury automaker mentioned. To compete, it has to play the global game even harder.

[positiveions]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yeah, the same way that blasphemy = anything but a 4-cylinder motor. I mean, jeez: the BMW AG HQ building's architecture is based on the 4-cylinder archetype!

Please read this R&T article from 2015. It is sage, and it is from an enthusiast's perspective.

And finally ... I've said this many, many times before on this forum: The U.S. market does not matter much to BMW, and the enthusiast market does not matter much to BMW except for marketing purposes. Accept that BMW is a global brand (and one of the strongest, according to some measures) and not fixated on the U.S. -- or Europe, for that matter -- and you'll understand almost every decision it makes. You may not like those decisions, but they are not stupid decisions.

My friend, US is the biggest market for BMW. Sure they like to throw anything in this market to steal numbers from other manufacturers, but leave it to the enthusiast that keeps purchasing this brand over and over again. Enthusiasts don't like change. Only the few, which are tossed by the wind from other manufacturers, will purchase FWD cars "Oh I drive a BMW".

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by positiveions

My friend, US is the biggest market for BMW. Sure they like to throw anything in this market to steal numbers from other manufacturers, but leave it to the enthusiast that keeps purchasing this brand over and over again. Enthusiasts don't like change. Only the few, which are tossed by the wind from other manufacturers, will purchase FWD cars "Oh I drive a BMW".

Ummm ... Please see this post from about a month ago.

The U.S. is, in fact, barely larger than Germany. Germany.

2017 YTD BMW Group sales:
Americas, i.e., the entire Western Hemisphere: 251,464
U.S. (part of the Americas): 197,654
Europe: 633,467
Asia: 477,670
China (part of Asia): 336,591
Germany (part of Europe): 181,571 = 92% of the U.S. market with 26% of the population
U.K. (part of Europe): 138,487 = 70% the size of the U.S. market with 20% of the population

I'll give you one guess which market BMW is losing the most sales. Just one ...

... Oh, and another newsflash: enthusiasts do not buy the vast, vast majority of BMWs...

... And, as stated previously by mkoesel and others: 80 percent of M135i drivers thought it was a FWD car when they bought it. These are European drivers: BMW's largest market and, generally, far more knowledgeable about cars and transportation than your average U.S. plebe. If they don't realize that, who the hell does? "Enthusiasts"?

Please remove the blinders ... carefully ...

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

... And, as stated previously by mkoesel and others: 80 percent of M135i drivers thought it was a FWD car when they bought it.

M135i drivers? Or all 1 series drivers?